Just When You Thought Arizona Couldn't Get Stupider...

[Ace Otana]

We are getting WAY off topic over here, as this is for "arizona gun law" and a specific gun law at that.

Don't really notice when discussions just stroll on through like that.

Debates can easily become personal or end up distorted, which is why it's important to add a sense of humour to shirk it off.

So here's a slap in the face....


Something my granddad taught me...."Never speak when angry, or risk regretting past words" Anger clouds judgement, so a calm mind is needed for speaking.
One thing this debate has demonstrated is how much atheists can disagree with each other.

If it's ok with you old chap, I'm going to give the discussion a little break. Saerules is no challenge in such a debate anyway.

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a) The streets aren't safe.
b) The police cannot be depended on.
c) Someone is out to get me.

A and B are a governmental problem. Fix them.

Agreed. Here the streets are safe (safe enough anyway). The police are always nearby and I don't have any enemies. Why need a weapon? I'm pretty sure the government won't go about gunning people down, not in a country as advanced as this.
I disagree with the whole - "Criminals have guns, so we should have them too!". Muslim fanatics have bombs, should we also? No one would agree to carrying a bomb around with them.

Besides, I don't need a weapon to have someone on the floor. If I was facing someone with a knife, I'll be aiming for the knife. If I manage to grab your hand/wrist, it's game over. Weapons don't guarantee your safety and victory. It just pushes the fight a little more to your favour. Lose your weapon and the fight will either level out or the knife falls into your opponents hands and......oh fuck!

[Violet]

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With weapons? I thought you live in a free and democratic nation? I'm pretty sure the US and UK is nothing like Libya where violence is necessary. For a long time I believed I was living in a very socially advanced nation, still do.

You surely know my stance on freedom and democracy by now.

Ah-huh. You go do that.
Don't take it personally but, that sounded kinda...immature. 'I'm gonna get a handgun but I'll just stick to knives for now'. Can't help but look down at that. Sorry.

Unfortunately, I am beneath the age in which I can legally carry a gun (in alaska). If it is illegal to carry a knife though: so what, I will still carry a knife. I don't need to go through the black market to obtain a decent knife (whereas I would to get a gun right now, and it would be pointless since I couldn't take it with me when I move to the lower 48 in a few months).

Immature that I haven't gone to the black market despite having easy connections with it? I'll try to remember your bizarre understanding of maturity when discussing this nonsense with you

Ah-huh. Well I consider carrying weapons to be incredibly stupid.

I am so not expecting you to watch my back if I go anywhere with you at all.

Only for a while, till they lose them to the cops, pay a high fine and may even spend a lengthy time behind bars. The law is quite strict on carrying weapons, for which I'm thankful.

So your surviving crime isn't sloppy. You seem to think it is inevitable that the cops will not only find their weapons but also seize them. I find that highly amusing.

Then spend the rest of their lives on the run or behind bars. Plus he better do it right, If I disarm him, he'll be locked in a little room for months on end. Maybe even years.

You're going to link a knife wound to someone's unregistered knife now? Knife is a quick job if done well, especially if done unexpectedly. Why not simply spend the rest of their life more chelaxed for having taken a thing from your dead clutches?

The thing about crime is that it is opportunistic in nature... if you pick a poor target, you don't last long. Seems to me that all you catch are the criminals that are so because of poverty. You miss the truly 'depraved' people who make a living off of it. Of course it has nothing to do with your cops being unaccustomed to dealing with weapons

We don't need to take weapons out with us. The law is already quite heavy on anyone silly enough to carry a weapon with them. Could find yourself paying a £5000 fine and may end up in the slammer for a lengthy time.

Because heavy law stops crime, amirite? Wrong... it morphs crime. Crime doesn't heed law... it hides from law. I'd far rather pay a 5000£ fine and keep my sorry hide than be shot.

I meant no need for them when out in public. I have never encountered a situation where I thought "I could do with a knife" when out of my home. People who do have a use for them are allowed to carry them if their possession can be justified.

Bottle opener, box cutter, letter opener, cheese slicer, cut sinew and bones away from meat of a chicken, cut bandage if someone is punctured, pry something open with the flat edge, be on hand to stab someone shooting people in the street, stop a solo robbery of a bank cold, neatly cut a piece of paper out of a notebook, carve your initials into a tree with a lover, open a banana from the top with relative ease, etc?

Lots of uses for knives. Not so many for guns, of course, But for knives? I'd rather have one than not wherever I am.

Do you actively want the populace to have tanks? Drive around fully armed and ready to kill anyone else that has a tank that they might use against them? No? Well then you are against FREEDOM! Do you actively want the populace to all own tactical nukes? To protect themselves from other people who may have nukes? Because you obviously don't trust the government to protect you from them. No? THEN YOU ARE AGAINST FREEEEEDOOOOM!!

Our military should be putting our tanks to full use on the battlefield in foreign countries, so while I of course would like our populace to have access to tanks: it is not in the interest of either the people or the government to have these used in our own country. Same thing goes for a bazooka or a mortar missile. You wouldn't believe how messy these explosive weapons/tanks can be. I can see a use for tanks in surveying (clearing the line)... but something of that much power is better used clearing a line of enemy forces than a forest.

I am indeed against freedom, kiddo... but not when it comes to guns, swords, and especially knives.

Same goes for tactical use. Leave those in a military's capable hands, as you aren't going to be able to use it effectively.

I don't trust the government to not use tanks and tactical nukes on its own people. A quick glance at soviet russia should tell you what I think of what government can pull. Luckily, tanks and nukes can drastically hurt infrastructure, and it is rather hard to take out guerilla warfare with tanks and nukes (especially once your people start mining the roads).

Obviously I have exaggerated things to make a point. But I still think it's a valid point, you don't need or want tanks or nukes surely? Because nobody else has them, so you don't need them. It's the same here with guns.

A poor point, we don't have enough hands in the military to hold all of the AK-47s made. We do, however, have enough for all of the tanks and tactical nukes.

*I* want a tank. And I'd love to have the tactical nukes too. However, the people don't need a tank to deal with crime. I can see grenades by people who've handled them before... but it's hard to justify the amount of property damage an explosion causes. Oftentimes you risk damaging a thing being stolen, or the damage done to property is greater than the worth of the thing stolen.

I have already said I understand why you, in the U.S. feel the right to own a gun is important, and I have agreed with you. Here in the U.K. society has decided that nobody needs guns, nobody is pushing to own guns and nobody I have ever met has said they would want a gun, I'm all for personal freedoms but when a society sends such a clear message on an issue as serious as having the means in your hands to end countless peoples lives then I'm all for listening to what everyone wants for the betterment of society.

Nobody except the cops, of course? I know what corrupt cops in alaska who have guns have done to those without. An officer was arrested up here 6 months-a year ago for raping I think 8(?) different women under the threat of gunpoint after pulling them over. I think that would have gone down differently if all of those women had been armed.

Your ability is not to end countless people's lives. Don't over-inflate yourself and others. At my very best, i could maybe bring down a dozen unarmed people with a gun(s). And that's assuming I'm extremely lucky and I strike a place where nobody has a gun, and nobody rushes me with a knife (why do you think most of these mass shootings occur in hospitals and schools?).

Stop implying I or anyone who is against arming the populace is against freedom, It's incorrect and pathetic.

It is incorrect that you denying a freedom is against specified freedom? Pathetic, i might believe. But then, I also believe your belief that your society is better for having a populace unarmed to be pathetic

That said, thinking that anyone can carry a weapon designed to kill (even a combat knife has well known alternate uses) in public says that the:
a) The streets aren't safe.
b) The police cannot be depended on.
c) Someone is out to get me.

A and B are a governmental problem. Fix them.

C is purely in your head and is more akin to believing in a magic man in the sky (who's really that voice in your head). It is a sign of mental illness, mayhap, to think that carrying a weapon everyone does nothing but increase the available weapons in a population.

It doesn't say that the streets are not safe, it says we can respond to unsafe streets.

Why would the police be depended upon to protect you unless they own you? I contend that the police do not own me, therefore I must protect myself if I am to have any protection.

Someone could be out to get you, but this is unlikely. Also please remember that I am for people being able to take basic combat classes in "high school". Completely obligatory classes on how to defend yourself in a variety of situations.

Also, if we consider certain criminal tendencies to be mental illness, then it is even crazier to think that a sane populace is buying weapons to defend themselves against the insane, which by definition is defending yourself against an ambiguity as you have no way of identifying who, what, where or when, can't ascribe motive and certainly can't articulate who truly is after you because they ARE CRAZY. You can't predict crazy.

Luckily, we don't have to predict crazy... we can't do that even with an unarmed populace. The thing that an armed populace has that an unarmed one does not is the ability to respond to crazy.

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I disagree with the whole - "Criminals have guns, so we should have them too!". Muslim fanatics have bombs, should we also? No one would agree to carrying a bomb around with them.

Maybe you've never had a good use for an explosion, but I sure have. Not often in a city life of course... but out here? Lots of use for a bomb. Luckily, we have heavy equipment, so we don't need bombs (very often at all).

[Skipper]

Sae, this is getting boring, we really arguing the same points over and over, and I agree with you, in the context of your country that you should have the freedom to own a firearm, but I don't think you are seeing there is an alternative for Britain, that DOES work.

You are using examples of bent cops in the states as another reason why you need a gun but fail to see it's not relevant for the point im arguing... British cops don't carry guns, so it's not a reason why we should need them.

If you live in a country that has willingly decided that anyone should have the right to a gun, then I agree, that that should mean EVERYONE as it's better than just a select few. We however live in a country that has willingly decided nobody should be able to carry a fire arm on them, nobody is denied a freedom because I don't see how it's denying freedom if people don't want that freedom.

Good talk though

[Ace Otana]

Ok. Here I go again. *Clicks fingers*

You surely know my stance on freedom and democracy by now.

Mostly, doesn't stop me from questioning though.

If it is illegal to carry a knife though: so what, I will still carry a knife.

Why? You really that afraid of being stabbed yourself? You sound a little like the typical yobs round here. That's a bad thing. You see, we don't need knives to defend ourselves. Hands and feet are pretty effective weapons if used correctly. You Americans rely too much on your knives and guns that you've forgotten your other weapons. If you and me were to have a face off, you can have the knife and I'll stick with my hands, I'm quite sure I could still have you on the floor. I'll be aiming for your knife, once I've gained control of either the knife or your wrist, the fight will be over. Of course, since it's you, I'll just sit on you till the cops turn up.

Immature that I haven't gone to the black market despite having easy connections with it?

Immature to want to have such a weapon and go out with it. Having a weapon on you only ups your favour in a fight, but you can still lose. Your weapon can still be used against you. I can still bring you down, regardless of the knife you hold in your hand. I rely on my fitness, agility and knowledge in martial arts. A knife man would have a serious time taking me on, he'd better be good or he'll end up either in hospital or the morgue.

I am so not expecting you to watch my back if I go anywhere with you at all.

Why? Because I rely on my hands rather than a blade or bullet?

So your surviving crime isn't sloppy. You seem to think it is inevitable that the cops will not only find their weapons but also seize them. I find that highly amusing.

Armed criminals are caught all the time. Plus our huge CCTV system is set up at every corner. Cameras everywhere! Walk into town, and around a dozen police cams would of spotted you before you even reached the town centre. Yes they do get caught.

You're going to link a knife wound to someone's unregistered knife now?

CCTV + DNA = One fucked criminal. You're skin is always flaking off, that's all the cops need to know who you are. The more sophisticated the technology, the harder it is to get away with the crime.
Anyway, no one carries knives round here. That would be stupid.

The thing about crime is that it is opportunistic in nature... if you pick a poor target, you don't last long.

Criminals will aim for the weakest. Those who are rather strong and physicly fit they tend to avoid. Even with a knife. You can still be easily over powered.
Also a personal alarm which is really fucking loud should deter most criminals. It gives off a deafening noise that alerts everyone in the area. The public becomes your greatest defence. Who would be silly enough to stab you in front of so many eyes? I have a personal alarm, and I'm sure it would deter most if not all criminals. If that fails, I'll resort to self defence measures.

I'd far rather pay a 5000£ fine and keep my sorry hide than be shot.

So you do carry weapons in fear?! Thought you said crime wasn't a problem? You'd rather be fined £5000 and a possible prison sentence, just for carrying around a blade? You really that afraid of being attacked?

*I* want a tank. And I'd love to have the tactical nukes too.

You're nuts.

[Dotard]

Ya know ACE, everyone isn't a "MachoMan, I'll take that knife and stick it up your ass, I'm Macho Man!"

You seem to fancy yourself as one of those T.V. kung-fu masters who take on a whole fuckin room of folks who come at you one at a time. Life here isn't like the movies. Even without guns or knives a pack of no-gooders will pick up bats and crowbars to take your possessions and rape your woman.

If you truely believe you can go all Ninja and wipe the floor with all 6+ of them then good for you, I'd really like to see that. Some of us are 50 year old, worked hard all their lives for what they have and, because of the hard back-breaking work, have bad backs and crickity knees.

It is a very real and present danger to stroll the street. In many areas car-jacking is like a frickin' sport. My 50 year old body can't spring out of the car and get to Chuck Norris'ing on the pack of ner'dogoods. Even if it could all the kung fu in the world ain't gonna stop a bullet. In Washington D.C. it is illegal to own a firearm. Guess who has the highest murder and crime rate? A disarmed populace is a criminals dream come true.

This is how "ACE-Anderson" views himself in his world;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UU3wPWYV6HQ


Sorry to pop your bubble ACE, but your Martial Arts wouldn't stand two seconds against my .45 Arts.

And neither would that gang of knife-wielding punks out to take my possessions. I honestly don't believe you would stand very long against that same gang. Against one or two, maybe. Three or more. I highly doubt it. You'd be poked so full of holes that when they hooked up the I.V. you'd look like a lawn sprinkler.

You ain't that bad-assed. Neither am I. I'll pack my heat, you pack your fantasies. Let's see who'd last longest when faced with multiple armed attackers. If they have guns also, I bet I'll take a couple/few with me to the morgue and you would die el solo.

[reverendjeremiah]

Dotard..dont waste your time. As far as Ace is concerned you should be fined heavily and possibly jailed for a few years for carrying a lethal weapon. He doesnt consider it protection no matter how much you explain to him. He considers it trouble and illegal.

[Dotard]

Yes, you are right sir. As long as ACE lives in his "I'm Remo Williams and can dodge bullets" fantasy world he will never quite understand how lacking hands and feet are at self-defense against armed attackers for the smaller/weaker/older/physically deteriated/handicapped person(s).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh4Kx9IqIZw&NR=1

I bet he thinks he can also ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qecTai8l...re=related

[Violet]

Sae, this is getting boring, we really arguing the same points over and over, and I agree with you, in the context of your country that you should have the freedom to own a firearm, but I don't think you are seeing there is an alternative for Britain, that DOES work.

I simply do not believe it does work. Maybe you brits are indoctrinated somehow into being better citizens... because if we stuck america's people into britain you'd have so many murders you'd have to quintuple your police force to even stand a chance

You are using examples of bent cops in the states as another reason why you need a gun but fail to see it's not relevant for the point im arguing... British cops don't carry guns, so it's not a reason why we should need them.

I used one example of that... however i didn't know that british cops didn't have guns. Now I am frankly curious how there isn't blood running the river Thames.

If you live in a country that has willingly decided that anyone should have the right to a gun, then I agree, that that should mean EVERYONE as it's better than just a select few. We however live in a country that has willingly decided nobody should be able to carry a fire arm on them, nobody is denied a freedom because I don't see how it's denying freedom if people don't want that freedom.

It doesn't matter if nobody wanted to climb the electric fence, it remains that if someone tells you that you aren't allowed to do so: they are attempting to restrict your freedom. Not that it will matter when you die of electric shock of course...

Tis fine if you do not want that freedom. I don't want the freedom to rape someone. It's still a restriction on one's freedom in both cases

Why? You really that afraid of being stabbed yourself? You sound a little like the typical yobs round here. That's a bad thing. You see, we don't need knives to defend ourselves. Hands and feet are pretty effective weapons if used correctly. You Americans rely too much on your knives and guns that you've forgotten your other weapons. If you and me were to have a face off, you can have the knife and I'll stick with my hands, I'm quite sure I could still have you on the floor. I'll be aiming for your knife, once I've gained control of either the knife or your wrist, the fight will be over. Of course, since it's you, I'll just sit on you till the cops turn up. [Image: battingeyes.gif]

Afraid of being stabbed? Not very. Prepared to draw it upon a rapist, a thief, someone attempting to mug me, a sadist? Quite.

My brain is an effective weapon, so are my appendages. A knife combined with these is far more effective though.

You also seem to think that people put all of their thoughts into a very small blade when either attacking or defending... while you're reaching out for my knife hand you will be socked in the face and kneed in the groin. I am not elite ninja the likes of the movies, and any trained individual twice my size is going to have their way with me... but the knife is an added insurance of survival/fewer injuries.

Immature to want to have such a weapon and go out with it. Having a weapon on you only ups your favour in a fight, but you can still lose. Your weapon can still be used against you. I can still bring you down, regardless of the knife you hold in your hand. I rely on my fitness, agility and knowledge in martial arts. A knife man would have a serious time taking me on, he'd better be good or he'll end up either in hospital or the morgue.

Lol... it's immature to want to have a weapon for added protection? I'd wear kevlar too if I had it.

As for the rest, refer you to dotard's argument i do.

Why? Because I rely on my hands rather than a blade or bullet?

Firstly because you are relying on something period... and secondly because hands are far less immediately threatening than hands + knife or hands + gun.

Armed criminals are caught all the time. Plus our huge CCTV system is set up at every corner. Cameras everywhere! Walk into town, and around a dozen police cams would of spotted you before you even reached the town centre. Yes they do get caught.

Ohh, i get it now. You are a NANNY STATE. And you have the gall to argue that it's american's having guns that causes us to have a higher murder rate? No bloody wonder your crime rate is 'so low': you give up your privacy for it. We do not.

CCTV + DNA = One fucked criminal. You're skin is always flaking off, that's all the cops need to know who you are. The more sophisticated the technology, the harder it is to get away with the crime.
Anyway, no one carries knives round here. That would be stupid. Tongue

Because they don't wear gloves and hats and commit crimes in places where there could be hundreds of potential suspects (ie taxis)?

Criminals will aim for the weakest. Those who are rather strong and physicly fit they tend to avoid. Even with a knife. You can still be easily over powered.
Also a personal alarm which is really fucking loud should deter most criminals. It gives off a deafening noise that alerts everyone in the area. The public becomes your greatest defence. Who would be silly enough to stab you in front of so many eyes? I have a personal alarm, and I'm sure it would deter most if not all criminals. If that fails, I'll resort to self defence measures.

Can you be overpowered when you take them by complete surprise and you gouge them in the back or neck?

Wtf is a personal alarm? 0.o

So you do carry weapons in fear?! Thought you said crime wasn't a problem? You'd rather be fined £5000 and a possible prison sentence, just for carrying around a blade? You really that afraid of being attacked?

I don't carry weapons in fear... i carry one so that I am entirely safe.

And yes, i'd rather be fined 5000$ (fuck your pounds) and spend some time in your pathetic excuse for a prison (i think the same of american prison) than give up carrying a blade when I walk around town.

No, I'm not afraid of being attacked... i am preparred for it.

[Skipper]

Sae, this is getting boring, we really arguing the same points over and over, and I agree with you, in the context of your country that you should have the freedom to own a firearm, but I don't think you are seeing there is an alternative for Britain, that DOES work.

I simply do not believe it does work. Maybe you brits are indoctrinated somehow into being better citizens... because if we stuck america's people into britain you'd have so many murders you'd have to quintuple your police force to even stand a chance

It's not indoctrination, just we as a society have decided we don't want everyone armed. And with our very low gun crime rates it DOES seem to be working. You can believe it dosen't all you want, I can see first hand it does.

You are using examples of bent cops in the states as another reason why you need a gun but fail to see it's not relevant for the point im arguing... British cops don't carry guns, so it's not a reason why we should need them.

I used one example of that... however i didn't know that british cops didn't have guns. Now I am frankly curious how there isn't blood running the river Thames.

BECAUSE NOBODY HAS GUNS!!!! AHHHHHHHH.

We don't have an armed police force, we don't have an armed population. Guns are not part of our culture.

I know you said in another thread you didn't have geography classes in high school, but you are aware there is a world outside the U.S with different laws, cultures and people yes? I have understood why the U.S is like the way it is when it comes to guns, and have agreed fully as to why you would feel the need to be armed. However, it would be nice if you could at least try and do the same with my country without implying we are against freedom, we are some how indoctrinated and we are some how being repressed because we don't have an armed population...we WILLINGLY do not want that. We do not need that.

Please try and see,

in a country where everyone is allowed to be armed, of course it makes sense to be armed.

in a country where nobody is allowed to be armed, and next to nobody is, what sense is there in wanting to/actually arming yourself!?

I have never once felt threatened in England apart from say a couple of drunken arguments or small scraps (that if people were armed, could have easily got a lot more serious) , never once has it crossed my mind that someone approaching me, even late at night, could be armed, I've never seen anyone with a gun, a knife or any weapon in the streets. It just makes no sense when we fortunately live in a country that has worked hard to make sure the threat of being gunned down is among the lowest in the world to then say "everyone should have the right to now be armed in the name of freedom".

[KichigaiNeko]

Sae...not everyone has an environment that is looking to eat you. aka Alaska is a rather rare place where guns are of a necessity to survival.

Watched a doco on the Monster of Iliamna Lake Monster http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliamna_Lake_Monster and was astounded by the necessity of firearms for the safety and survival of people there on it's shores. Grizzllies seems to be a huge issue come the Salmon Run.