Jesus on the Gospel, not any Christian Church, and the Afterlife

[KerimF]

I may be completely obtuse, but Kerim I'm not following your point.  Your subsequent posts are not adding to the clarity either.  Others have claimed Jesus is a fictional person, which you accept and still stick to using Him and this good news.  It would be no different than quoting what Gandalf said in Lord of the Rings.  

If you want to make an argument about something, you need to build a base that can withstand some scrutiny.  I of course would argue against Jesus being fictional as there are non-biblical references to Christ, like Tacitus, Mara Bar-Serapion and Phlegon (quoted by Julius Africanus).

If they were contemporaries of Jesus in a position to know about him first hand, I would find them much more convincing. I'm not committed to mythicism, but I guess the odds of a real, singular, historical Jesus on who's teachings Christianity was based, is around 3 in 7. The historical Jesus, the composite Jesus, and the mythical Jesus all seem about equally plausible to me.

Indeed, a rational person ignores (or doesn’t take seriously) a reference which doesn't give him any idea(s) that he could apply in his life and is useful to him, in one way or another.
Naturally, this includes what Jesus revealed about Life's Reality.
 
I hope you agree with me that, even in learning science, not every person feels the need to learn Math, as I did, to have a good life

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The Gospels are not history.

The above, as well as your earlier post, are simply one more way for theists to claim that the Bible doesn't mean what it says. Luke could have included a passage reading something like, 'And the Lord did go among the reeds and rushes by the roadside. There did He squatteth and take Him a huge dump, and it stinketh', and your ilk would insist that it was a chaste and holy allegory referring to the rewards of heaven or how to deal with false prophets or price controls on flummery pie.

The Jesus Editorial Board invented the Hell Christians are so concerned with. They didn't invent nothingness as a consequence of sin.

Boru

Sorry, I couldn't get well your point.

Anyway, do you mean you heard what I said about 'hell' from another source, mainly a Christian one?!

My point is that the ‘holy’ books are so infested with reprehensible behaviours and ideas that religionists have to go all round the houses in a ridiculous attempt to show that the books are something worthwhile. All of the extraneous bombastic circumlocution you people can muster will never change the fact that the books - Christian and Muslim - call for and promise nightmarishly painful punishment for sinners and non-believers.

Boru

[Astreja]

Even an atheist follows sometimes, though without his knowledge, Jesus’ advice about praying in private (actually talking to oneself)...

Praying and talking to oneself are distinctly different things. When I'm working on a math problem, reading numbers aloud as I copy them from a worksheet onto scrap paper, that is not a prayer. Looking through the fridge and saying "The milk, the eggs... Bread, margarine..." while gathering ingredients for breakfast - also not a prayer.

Atheists. Do. Not. Pray.

[KerimF]

Sorry, I couldn't get well your point.

Anyway, do you mean you heard what I said about 'hell' from another source, mainly a Christian one?!

My point is that the ‘holy’ books are so infested with reprehensible behaviours and ideas that religionists have to go all round the houses in a ridiculous attempt to show that the books are something worthwhile. All of the extraneous bombastic circumlocution you people can muster will never change the fact that the books - Christian and Muslim - call for and promise nightmarishly painful punishment for sinners and non-believers.

Boru

In general, you are very right.
Before I go one, I wish you know that what Muslims, Jews and formal Christians (to name a few) are supposed to believe and do, have nothing to do with the real message of Jesus that no preacher is allowed to talk about. Why? because it opposes clearly the crucial human instincts (the pre-programmed instructions, embedded in the human living body); as of survival, superiority and applying justice on others. Therefore, it opposes the crucial rules of any law (religious or political) around the world since they are all based on these natural instincts.

So, let us try to be more specific.
For example, we can start from something Jesus says on the Gospel that sounds, to you in the least, non-sense or lunatic.

By the way, I recall now how some of my classmates used seeing the various formulas, we heard of, in Math/Physics courses as being non-sense, but they had to learn them temporarily to pass their exams. On my side, I did the same but with Literature and History. So, I guess, by a miracle I was able to pass their exams, one year after another. Naturally, after school, I forgot almost everything related to them  It happens that I just like playing with numbers, parameters, symbols and equations based on logic (this is why I ended up being a private designer in electronics besides being a professional programmer of microcontrollers for the last 45 years).

I mean while there is likely a global set of truths (that defines the universe in which we were brought temporarily), every human needs to know just a sub-set of it to get the perfect knowledge he looks for (perfect, relative to his personal needs). Naturally, this sub-set differs from one person to another (as one's DNA is different from of all others  ). Of course, these different sub-sets have likely common points mainly the ones that reflect the difference between the human race and the other living things.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@KerimF

Even an atheist follows sometimes, though without his knowledge, Jesus’ advice about praying in private (actually talking to oneself)

This is complete bollocks and shows that your knowledge of scripture isn’t all that it could be. Jesus admonition was to ‘…go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen’.

This is not the same as talking to oneself.

Boru

[KerimF]

Even an atheist follows sometimes, though without his knowledge, Jesus’ advice about praying in private (actually talking to oneself)...

Praying and talking to oneself are distinctly different things.  When I'm working on a math problem, reading numbers aloud as I copy them from a worksheet onto scrap paper, that is not a prayer.  Looking through the fridge and saying "The milk, the eggs... Bread, margarine..." while gathering ingredients for breakfast - also not a prayer.

Atheists.  Do.  Not.  Pray.

Surely, there is nothing wrong in what you said.
But as the way one talks to some others is different from one situation to another (talking for fun, looking for decisions, arguing... etc.), talking to oneself is not necessarily of the same spirit (sorry, my English is rather narrow. I wish I know a better word that doesn't hurt an atheist). This is why I added:

... every time he says “Let me be alone” then enters a room for a while after he closes its door behind him.

After all, one is fortunate indeed, if he didn't need to live such situation any time in his life.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I may be completely obtuse, but Kerim I'm not following your point.  Your subsequent posts are not adding to the clarity either.  Others have claimed Jesus is a fictional person, which you accept and still stick to using Him and this good news.  It would be no different than quoting what Gandalf said in Lord of the Rings.  

If you want to make an argument about something, you need to build a base that can withstand some scrutiny.  I of course would argue against Jesus being fictional as there are non-biblical references to Christ, like Tacitus, Mara Bar-Serapion and Phlegon (quoted by Julius Africanus).

Tacitus isn't of much value regarding the historicity of Jesus - he was writing a quarter century after the fact, and was very probably repeating what Christians of his era believed.

Bar-Serapion is even worse, as it isn't at all clear that 'the wise king' referred to is Jesus.

Phlegon never even mentioned Jesus, or anyone remotely like Jesus.

Boru

[KerimF]

@KerimF

Even an atheist follows sometimes, though without his knowledge, Jesus’ advice about praying in private (actually talking to oneself)

This is complete bollocks and shows that your knowledge of scripture isn’t all that it could be. Jesus admonition was to ‘…go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is unseen’.

This is not the same as talking to oneself.

Boru

Very good remark.
But whenever someone talks to an unseen being (like one of his beloved persons who has to live too far away from him or was dead), isn't it like talking to oneself?!
 
Sorry, I personally don't have sacred words (or holy books) as Pagans (and likely many Christians you met) are supposed to have.
Being a rational scientific person, I used seeing/analyzing the solution of a problem from different angles in order to better know how to apply it (in case it looks being useful to me or to some others).
 
I lost my earthly father at age 9. I feel the need to talk to him sometimes while I remember the last things he said and did to me. Although this may be not important to others, I do this just to recall that I am a human, not just an intelligent animal (or one of the AI robots). Similarly, whenever I face a hard situation, I feel the need to also talk to the unseen Will behind the existence of my very complex living being. This simply gives a sort of rest/break to my brain in order to give it a better chance to find me the best solution for it. Obviously, not everyone can do it because one has to trust fully first that he was created with the ability to find the logical answers to all his crucial/important questions related to his life (with no exception).
But, actually, all formal theists around the world are made to believe that the power of their mind is limited by design. Therefore, they have to accept/believe that they have to live on earth a sort of silly game in which there are many locked doors whose keys to be found are hidden but they cannot be accessed in any way.
 
I am afraid that there is no remedy when one cannot trust his given unlimited intellectual power.
 
So, I wonder to how far an atheist can trust the power of his mind  I used hearing that an atheist is ready to believe whatever he can see and/or hear only as being real (for example, the notion of ‘infinity’ in Math cannot exist to an atheist and he should disregard it  ). After all, believing something being real/true by seeing and/or hearing it, is the main base on which the well-paid international and local news agencies spread fairy tales (mostly political) which are made/created for adults, in each period of time, by the powerful rich World’s Elite.

[Deesse23]

I may be completely obtuse, but Kerim I'm not following your point.  Your subsequent posts are not adding to the clarity either.  Others have claimed Jesus is a fictional person, which you accept and still stick to using Him and this good news.  It would be no different than quoting what Gandalf said in Lord of the Rings.  

If you want to make an argument about something, you need to build a base that can withstand some scrutiny.  I of course would argue against Jesus being fictional as there are non-biblical references to Christ, like Tacitus, Mara Bar-Serapion and Phlegon (quoted by Julius Africanus).

Tacitus isn't of much value regarding the historicity of Jesus - he was writing a quarter century after the fact, and was very probably repeating what Christians of his era believed.

Bar-Serapion is even worse, as it isn't at all clear that 'the wise king' referred to is Jesus.

Phlegon never even mentioned Jesus, or anyone remotely like Jesus.

Boru

Bar- Serapion was born 20y after the supposed death of Jesus. You need to demonstrate that he had RELIABLE informations as to what Jesus asctually has said.....20y after the fact.

Its like someone telling us in the early 1980s about Martn Luthers great speeches, in a world without www, phones, radio, or even newspapers.

Phlegon was born 100y after the purpoted fact. Good luck demonstrating that after 100y he had RELIABLE info about what Jesus said.

Tacitus, yeah, afaik he only reports that some people BELIEVED in Jesus. That is totally disconnected form who he was or what he said, without further evidence.
I can confidentially report that the Davidian sect existed, the guys who all commmited suicide. They died for their belief! What does that tell you about the claims of Koresh being a prophet or whatever?

[KerimF]

Sorry friends, you give me the impression that I am the only rational person here!!! But this cannot be true.

Please tell me. How does a human discover that an idea, he heard of, is true and useful or not (to him in the least)?
For example, should someone bother himself searching if Pythagoras was real or not before deciding to believe/accept or not what is known as Pythagoras' theorem?
I hope this is clear.

The writers of the book, called the Gospel, presented a person (or character if you like) who revealed clearly many crucial natural truths related to human's life (including mine).
Here is one example (there are many). He says on the Gospel that 'World Peace' can never exist (by design). Now, it is up to me, based on my logical reasoning, to accept this idea as being true or not whenever I hear a great speech about World Peace. Fortunately, this Jesus also gave me a clear practical clue for it. He opened my eyes that, even in one big family, real permanent peace among its members (who usually share the same language and culture, besides being related in blood) cannot exist unless apparently or, at best, for short periods of time once a while. In fact, the worst enemy who may exist in one's life is likely one of his relatives. So, if this is the case of one real family, one can imagine what it could be among millions of families around the world who have different languages and cultures (besides many other things). So, whenever I hear someone who preaches the World Peace or justifies something (for example, a certain invasion) in the name of World Peace, I would know for sure that the VIP speaker is one of two: a servant of a powerful rich deceiving group, or, at best, a newcomer into real life, still in the learning stage. So, after hearing a great speech of World Peace, I won't see a naive fooled man when I look at a mirror (thanks to the teacher, known as Jesus, real or fictional).