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RE: Palestine
November 29, 2023 at 12:02 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2023 at 12:06 pm by FrustratedFool.)
Mix of consequences and emotions (I take what the consequences on my emotions will be into account).
In an ideal solution there would be no Palestinian Gaza strip/apartheid.
Practically, I can conceive of no way of having that occur in the short term and am resigned to the idea that out of a range of bad options the least worst option is the maintenance of the status quo. One of the first things I asked in this thread was what are possible solutions. There don't appear to be any. So I support Israel, and expect a return to something closely resembling the previous state of affairs, with a potential repeat of this conflict in a few years.
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RE: Palestine
November 29, 2023 at 12:06 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2023 at 12:12 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Is it, though? Isn't "isreali excess" the status quo? Maybe the islamists wouldn't listen to the great satan but we probably could pressure isreal to change the status quo even if all other details remain as is. It seems the least worst scenario could at least include the end of apartheid or apartheid-adjacent policies.
Who knows, that might open up other possibilities in the near to mid to long term future?
As a personal anecdote. Whenever our firebase noticed an uptick in insurgent, resistence, or protest action..we scaled back our patrols and especially our home searches (especially...especially...the 2am ones...) as a matter of procedure. The idea being that, at least on some level, we were the fire under the kettle and if it was whistling we were working too hard. Working too hard was risky to us (you don;t wanna hear the odds of injury or death by position in a breach stack), and it wasn't beneficial to the locals. How might we convince other people to see the practical value in approaching such dynamics this way?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Palestine
November 29, 2023 at 12:11 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2023 at 12:12 pm by FrustratedFool.)
I think so, yes. Israeli excess would be blatant war crimes and atrocities during this conflict (which would provoke a wider conflict).
I don't think Israel can be persuaded to stop treating Gaza in the way it does, and I suspect that making Gaza more habitable will simply make Israel's nearby enemies more powerful and dangerous and more firmly entrench the Palestinian presence in that area. That would seem to run counter to what is in my best interests, which would be a strong and successful secular ME state and the weakening of its enemies.
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RE: Palestine
November 29, 2023 at 3:07 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2023 at 3:10 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The popular palestinian authorities were secular...and more secular than isreal......it's just that the ruling isreali regime decided that this..did not help them. So they starved the secularists and fed the islamists, while promoting the theocratic authoritarian elements in their own government and populace.
Still sure that isreal..instead of palestine... is your preferred option, because secular?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Palestine
November 29, 2023 at 10:07 pm
(This post was last modified: November 29, 2023 at 10:07 pm by Bucky Ball.)
There are 700,000+ illegal Israeli settlers living in Palestinian territory.
They must consider that they produced the terrorists.
Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble. - Joseph Campbell 
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RE: Palestine
November 30, 2023 at 3:28 am
Doesn't really matter in terms of real politik or solutions or what's best now.
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RE: Palestine
November 30, 2023 at 3:37 am
(This post was last modified: November 30, 2023 at 3:38 am by FrustratedFool.)
(November 29, 2023 at 3:07 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The popular palestinian authorities were secular...and more secular than isreal......it's just that the ruling isreali regime decided that this..did not help them. So they starved the secularists and fed the islamists, while promoting the theocratic authoritarian elements in their own government and populace.
Still sure that isreal..instead of palestine... is your preferred option, because secular?
Yes. At the current time, regardless of whatever happened in the past, Palestine would be Islamist. Therefore, secular Israel is better than Islamist Gaza.
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RE: Palestine
November 30, 2023 at 3:46 am
(November 30, 2023 at 3:37 am)FrustratedFool Wrote: (November 29, 2023 at 3:07 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The popular palestinian authorities were secular...and more secular than isreal......it's just that the ruling isreali regime decided that this..did not help them. So they starved the secularists and fed the islamists, while promoting the theocratic authoritarian elements in their own government and populace.
Still sure that isreal..instead of palestine... is your preferred option, because secular?
Yes. At the current time, regardless of whatever happened in the past, Palestine would be Islamist. Therefore, secular Israel is better than Islamist Gaza.
To create a secular Gaza, all Israel needs to do is to treat Gazans the way they treat Israelis. As Bucky said, Israel is creating Islamists - terrorists don't simply pop into existence.
Boru
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RE: Palestine
November 30, 2023 at 4:11 am
I disagree. I think that if Israel treated Gaza differently, or if there was a Palestinian state, then you would you get an Islamic state dedicated to the destruction of Israel and desiring revenge for the past. Which is worse than the current situation.
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RE: Palestine
November 30, 2023 at 4:16 am
*shrug* Think what you like.
Boru
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