No such thing as a "true" Christian

[reverendjeremiah]

Surely person B would go to heaven according to a rough reading of the bible. Then again, the bible isnt exactly specific. Some say only works, some say only faith, some say both...but for the most part faith tends to be the biggest thing tied to salvation.

Personally I would draw my final answer from intuition. In the end, we are talking about an all powerful god. An all powerful god doesnt need his worshippers approval to do anything. So this god may, more than likely, arbitrarily pick and choose who he wants to burn in Hell if it so pleases him. Of course, the worshippers and believers will jump up and down and argue that god CANT do that, that he would keep his promise and yadda yadda, but in reality a god can do whatever he/she wants in spite of its believers. The believers will non-stop insist otherwise, as if their objections can stop and control an all powerful deity from ultimately doing what it wants. An all knowing god will know every choice of action that every person would make thousands of years before that person was even born. That all knowing god would even see his own future and know what choices he would make in regards of either sending people to his paradise, or eternal torture. So, if a god exists such as the bible suggest, every humans fate was sealed an infinity amount of years ago, before the universe was even created. This would mean works and faith play nothing into the grand scheme of things as there would be no freewill. Everything would have been exhaustively scripted out and approved of by the creator god before creation. If a god didnt like MY future decisions, that he KNEW I was going to make, and he KNEW he was going to send me to hell, then why did he allow me to be created in the first place?

The answer: He WANTS to send people to hell.

So, intuitively I would say that if a god REALLY existed, then the bible wouldnt really matter. Our fates would have been sealed long ago, and god apparently enjoys the idea of torturing people in Hell for all eternity. That would make the creator a malevolent force. So my answer would be that both will burn in Hell.

Yeah, if I had to put my money down on a bet, I would bet it all on BOTH Persons A and B burning in Hell for the amusement of the malevolent designer.

[Zen Badger]

---

Surely person B would go to heaven according to a rough reading of the bible. Then again, the bible isnt exactly specific. Some say only works, some say only faith, some say both...but for the most part faith tends to be the biggest thing tied to salvation.

Personally I would draw my final answer from intuition. In the end, we are talking about an all powerful god. An all powerful god doesnt need his worshippers approval to do anything. So this god may, more than likely, arbitrarily pick and choose who he wants to burn in Hell if it so pleases him. Of course, the worshippers and believers will jump up and down and argue that god CANT do that, that he would keep his promise and yadda yadda, but in reality a god can do whatever he/she wants in spite of its believers. The believers will non-stop insist otherwise, as if their objections can stop and control an all powerful deity from ultimately doing what it wants. An all knowing god will know every choice of action that every person would make thousands of years before that person was even born. That all knowing god would even see his own future and know what choices he would make in regards of either sending people to his paradise, or eternal torture. So, if a god exists such as the bible suggest, every humans fate was sealed an infinity amount of years ago, before the universe was even created. This would mean works and faith play nothing into the grand scheme of things as there would be no freewill. Everything would have been exhaustively scripted out and approved of by the creator god before creation. If a god didnt like MY future decisions, that he KNEW I was going to make, and he KNEW he was going to send me to hell, then why did he allow me to be created in the first place?

The answer: He WANTS to send people to hell.

So, intuitively I would say that if a god REALLY existed, then the bible wouldnt really matter. Our fates would have been sealed long ago, and god apparently enjoys the idea of torturing people in Hell for all eternity. That would make the creator a malevolent force. So my answer would be that both will burn in Hell.

Yeah, if I had to put my money down on a bet, I would bet it all on BOTH Persons A and B burning in Hell for the amusement of the malevolent designer.

---

And what makes it even funnier is that he gives them the false hope of thinking that they can change that outcome.

You have to admire that sort of thinking.

[KichigaiNeko]

---

Surely person B would go to heaven according to a rough reading of the bible. Then again, the bible isnt exactly specific. Some say only works, some say only faith, some say both...but for the most part faith tends to be the biggest thing tied to salvation.

Personally I would draw my final answer from intuition. In the end, we are talking about an all powerful god. An all powerful god doesnt need his worshippers approval to do anything. So this god may, more than likely, arbitrarily pick and choose who he wants to burn in Hell if it so pleases him. Of course, the worshippers and believers will jump up and down and argue that god CANT do that, that he would keep his promise and yadda yadda, but in reality a god can do whatever he/she wants in spite of its believers. The believers will non-stop insist otherwise, as if their objections can stop and control an all powerful deity from ultimately doing what it wants. An all knowing god will know every choice of action that every person would make thousands of years before that person was even born. That all knowing god would even see his own future and know what choices he would make in regards of either sending people to his paradise, or eternal torture. So, if a god exists such as the bible suggest, every humans fate was sealed an infinity amount of years ago, before the universe was even created. This would mean works and faith play nothing into the grand scheme of things as there would be no freewill. Everything would have been exhaustively scripted out and approved of by the creator god before creation. If a god didnt like MY future decisions, that he KNEW I was going to make, and he KNEW he was going to send me to hell, then why did he allow me to be created in the first place?

The answer: He WANTS to send people to hell.

So, intuitively I would say that if a god REALLY existed, then the bible wouldnt really matter. Our fates would have been sealed long ago, and god apparently enjoys the idea of torturing people in Hell for all eternity. That would make the creator a malevolent force. So my answer would be that both will burn in Hell.

Yeah, if I had to put my money down on a bet, I would bet it all on BOTH Persons A and B burning in Hell for the amusement of the malevolent designer.

---

And what makes it even funnier is that he gives them the false hope of thinking that they can change that outcome.

You have to admire that sort of thinking.

Pitty that his followers haven't cottoned on to just WHAT the Mo-Fo is REALLY saying.

[fr0d0]

In your view, are people judged upon death or only upon the return of Jesus to earth?
And if it is post-return, what is the state of their consciousness in the interim?

As a member of the unwashed, I believe that to be symbolic/ a natural & integral expression of conversion. ie conversion doesn't happen without it.

Huh? Baptism is already symbolic. Do you mean the water is "metaphoric"? As in; "People do not need to be physically submerged in water, the water is a metaphor for the holy spirit washing away our sins" or something to that effect?

Yeah it's symbolic/ the physical act isn't actually necessary to be baptized. We still say our sins were washed away but water has nothing to do with that ever.

Also, I noticed this on your link "Christians will be judged according to their works and so will non-Christians" - What bearing does that have on your insistence that one need be "baptized" to be saved?

"Christians - those who are going to heaven because Jesus has forgiven their sins - will discover that God will judge their works too! But this judgment is to evaluate the "spiritual works" we did in this life. It is not for punishment. They will go to heaven because of Jesus' forgiveness."

What you do isn't so important in Xtianity as being a new person in Christ. What you do is a consequence of what you believe, and not the other way around.

[reverendjeremiah]

Yeah, fr0d0, did you even read the last 4 posts? We mapped your god out big time and got him down for you..have a look see.

[fr0d0]

Just the usual sillyness Rev.

That God already knows doesn't change the fact that you are a free agent. Such is fruitless mental masturbation. I read that 1 in 7000 is saved. A good reason to question.

[downbeatplumb]

That God already knows doesn't change the fact that you are a free agent. Such is fruitless mental masturbation. I read that 1 in 7000 is saved. A good reason to question.

Only if you've drunk the coolaid.

[Strongbad]

Also, I noticed this on your link "Christians will be judged according to their works and so will non-Christians" - What bearing does that have on your insistence that one need be "baptized" to be saved?

"Christians - those who are going to heaven because Jesus has forgiven their sins - will discover that God will judge their works too! But this judgment is to evaluate the "spiritual works" we did in this life. It is not for punishment. They will go to heaven because of Jesus' forgiveness."

I'm a little confused over the issue of "works". This quote under the heading "Evidences You Are A Christian" (from the same website referenced earlier) seems to indicate that some Christians will go to hell based on their "deeds" (or lack thereof, I guess):

In Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus tells us that at the end of this age God will sit as a king and judge each one of us. He will put some of us on His right side and some on His left. Those on the right side will go to heaven and the others will go to the Lake of Fire. Then he will show us why that decision was made. Our deeds will be the proof of our true character. He will reveal how we either helped or did not help others, including the poor.

http://www.neverthirsty.org/pp/marks-of-...tian1.html

Am I incorrect in assuming that "works" and "deeds" are the same thing? If all Christians automatically go to heaven regardless of their works, and all non-Christians automatically go to hell because of their non-belief and irrespective of their works, then what does this passage mean?

[fr0d0]

I think it's saying Strongbad that your deeds will show your belief. "by their fruits you shall know them". This isn't that works/ deeds get you anywhere > a reward for trying to be good under your own steam; but that it's your acknowledgement of the source of goodness, that all these things will then come from you as result.

[Godscreated]

Surely person B would go to heaven according to a rough reading of the bible. Then again, the bible isnt exactly specific. Some say only works, some say only faith, some say both...but for the most part faith tends to be the biggest thing tied to salvation.

Personally I would draw my final answer from intuition. In the end, we are talking about an all powerful god. An all powerful god doesnt need his worshippers approval to do anything. So this god may, more than likely, arbitrarily pick and choose who he wants to burn in Hell if it so pleases him. Of course, the worshippers and believers will jump up and down and argue that god CANT do that, that he would keep his promise and yadda yadda, but in reality a god can do whatever he/she wants in spite of its believers. The believers will non-stop insist otherwise, as if their objections can stop and control an all powerful deity from ultimately doing what it wants. An all knowing god will know every choice of action that every person would make thousands of years before that person was even born. That all knowing god would even see his own future and know what choices he would make in regards of either sending people to his paradise, or eternal torture. So, if a god exists such as the bible suggest, every humans fate was sealed an infinity amount of years ago, before the universe was even created. This would mean works and faith play nothing into the grand scheme of things as there would be no freewill. Everything would have been exhaustively scripted out and approved of by the creator god before creation. If a god didnt like MY future decisions, that he KNEW I was going to make, and he KNEW he was going to send me to hell, then why did he allow me to be created in the first place?

The answer: He WANTS to send people to hell.

So, intuitively I would say that if a god REALLY existed, then the bible wouldnt really matter. Our fates would have been sealed long ago, and god apparently enjoys the idea of torturing people in Hell for all eternity. That would make the creator a malevolent force. So my answer would be that both will burn in Hell.

Yeah, if I had to put my money down on a bet, I would bet it all on BOTH Persons A and B burning in Hell for the amusement of the malevolent designer.

First thing you have done is to limit God by discribing Him only as all powerful. Second is that you believe He is a torturer and scripture says that God desires that no one suffers eternal punishment. Third you believe that God chooses whether or not someone goes to hell, wrong, each individual makes his/her choice. Forth you want to know why God allowed you to be created, freewill is your answer. Your birth was certain, God saw it, your final decision at death is not reversable, God saw it, however everthing in between is your choice by freewill not planned out as you believe. God gives you every chance, He gives us all ever chance and more because He does knows, but He never forces you to make a decision for or against Him.
As for the question about persons A and B. The thief on the cross beside Jesus accepted Him for who He truly is and as Jesus said "you will be in Paradise with Me". Person B does not make it into heaven because he rejected Christ which is the unforgivable sin, so in the end he could not be perfectly sinless.