Human Nature

[Thumpalumpacus]

[...] and he didn't work for universal health insurance. 

After 2010 the GOP put a stopper in that as much as they could. He still got ACA passed -- not "universal", but it sure made health care more affordable.

You don't seem willing to give him credit for that; yet you don't criticize Republicans for doing their level best to stopper it.

I should think that someone so apparently concerned about universal health care would welcome even an imperfect step in the right direction. But no.

[Belacqua]

[...] and he didn't work for universal health insurance. 

After 2010 the GOP put a stopper in that as much as they could. He still got ACA passed -- not "universal", but it sure made health care more affordable.

You don't seem willing to give him credit for that; yet you don't criticize Republicans for doing their level best to stopper it.

I should think that someone so apparently concerned about universal health care would welcome even an imperfect step in the right direction. But no.

When the Democrats held the White House, the House, and the Senate, they decided to mandate Mitt Romney's insurance plan for the whole country. This was a great benefit for the insurance industry, and better than nothing for regular people. There is no indication that Obama made any effort to do something better, and of course Hillary Clinton is on record saying that "single payer will never happen." 

Yes, the Republicans don't want single payer either. They also don't want to give you a good system.

So we can blame the Republicans that the Democrats did this. Though the fact that the insurance industry gives millions of dollars to both parties every year may have had something to do with it. 

So in many medical areas the US has the worst results of any developed nation, with overall higher costs. According to the Kaiser Family Foundation analysis, 41% of U.S. adults have medical debt, and 24% consider bankruptcy. Depending on how you analyze the data, there are half a million bankruptcies in the US every year that are caused at least in part by medical costs. 

So our tribal loyalties may allow us to blame the Republicans entirely, while we show our gratitude to Obama for a crappy system that has worse outcomes than any other developed nation. This allows us to keep voting for the Democrats, even though they gave us a crappy system. 

"Not quite as horrible as it might have been" would be a good campaign slogan for the Dems, I think.

[Alan V]

After 2010 the GOP put a stopper in that as much as they could. He still got ACA passed -- not "universal", but it sure made health care more affordable.

You don't seem willing to give him credit for that; yet you don't criticize Republicans for doing their level best to stopper it.

I should think that someone so apparently concerned about universal health care would welcome even an imperfect step in the right direction. But no.

MAGAts believe in conspiracies of the government against the people.

Progressives believe in conspiracies of business interests against the people.

It all seems like common human psychology to me, not even good politics.

[Sheldon]

After 2010 the GOP put a stopper in that as much as they could. He still got ACA passed -- not "universal", but it sure made health care more affordable.

You don't seem willing to give him credit for that; yet you don't criticize Republicans for doing their level best to stopper it.

I should think that someone so apparently concerned about universal health care would welcome even an imperfect step in the right direction. But no.

MAGAts believe in conspiracies of the government against the people.

Progressives believe in conspiracies of business interests against the people.

It all seems like common human psychology to me, not even good politics.

I believe conspiracies, if, and only if, they are exposed by sufficient, and sufficiently objective evidence. 

How have I not been burned as a witch.

[Alan V]

I believe conspiracies, if, and only if, they are exposed by sufficient, and sufficiently objective evidence.

People merely working together toward some common goal is not a conspiracy. A conspiracy requires coordinated illegal behaviors or, as you say, evidence of such.

Of course, if people ignore the evidence, the facts, then anything goes. That's why, for many people, compromise has become impossible, since we now see so many bad-faith actors in politics.

So we are back to the powerful against the weak.

[Angrboda]

Conspiracies do not require illegal activity. Criminal conspiracies do, but I don't see that this was specified.

[Thumpalumpacus]

So our tribal loyalties may allow us to blame the Republicans entirely, while we show our gratitude to Obama for a crappy system that has worse outcomes than any other developed nation. This allows us to keep voting for the Democrats, even though they gave us a crappy system. 

I wasn't saying that the Democrats haven't contributed to the problem. I was correcting an oversight driven by your obvious bias and whataboutism.

For the record, I'm registered as an independent and don't have these "tribal" loyalties you're projecting upon everyone. I only started voting Democrat regularly once the Republicans started working actively to undermine our Constitution -- because as a veteran, that is my only loyalty.

[Alan V]

People merely working together toward some common goal is not a conspiracy.  A conspiracy requires coordinated illegal behaviors or, as you say, evidence of such.

Of course, if people ignore the evidence, the facts, then anything goes.  That's why, for many people, compromise has become impossible, since we now see so many bad-faith actors in politics.

So we are back to the powerful against the weak.

Conspiracies do not require illegal activity.  Criminal conspiracies do, but I don't see that this was specified.

... illegal or harmful behaviors ... then.

[Deesse23]

So our tribal loyalties may allow us to blame the Republicans entirely, while we show our gratitude to Obama for a crappy system that has worse outcomes than any other developed nation. This allows us to keep voting for the Democrats, even though they gave us a crappy system. 

And here it is again, the equivocation and minimization. Implementing a "crappy" system = trying your best to abandon it and replace it with....."concepts of a plan", since.......2016?

[Belacqua]

People merely working together toward some common goal is not a conspiracy.  A conspiracy requires coordinated illegal behaviors or, as you say, evidence of such.

Of course, if people ignore the evidence, the facts, then anything goes.  That's why, for many people, compromise has become impossible, since we now see so many bad-faith actors in politics.

So we are back to the powerful against the weak.

Conspiracies do not require illegal activity.  Criminal conspiracies do, but I don't see that this was specified.

... illegal or harmful behaviors ... then.

If "conspiracy theories" are about secret nefarious plans, I think these are almost always exaggerated. It's not like the powerful people meet in some secret underground lair to plan their evil plans. 

What's perfectly out in the open is sufficient to see that, as you say, the powerful work against the weak. And the powerful may not even think of it that way to themselves, like they don't say "I'm going to lobby my congressman for something that will hurt the weak [Mr. Burns laugh]." They simply do what is in their own best interest. 

I mean, moving all of America's factories overseas wasn't the result of some secret cabal. It was just good economic sense, if you happen to own a factory.