Human Nature

[Angrboda]

If you don't have any expectations, then you'll never be disappointed.

Expectations are built up by experience, so I find that position hard to understand.

You expect to have expectations? At least one should be reasonable in expecting that the world will not be defied by the artificial impositions of our experience.

Ultimately, our knowledge of the world is descriptive, not prescriptive; and we exceed that remit at our peril.

The world's great religions all suggest we temper if not wholly abandon our expectations. From the moral humility asked of a Christian who expects redemption to come from outside themselves through grace, to the Buddha who teaches us to detach ourselves from Dukkha and the illusions of the ego, to the Taoist who tells us to be as the uncarved block. Even the best of our science tells us that we are to measure real success in terms of failure and surprise, rather than confirmation and fulfilled expectations.

[Alan V]

Expectations are built up by experience, so I find that position hard to understand.

You expect to have expectations?  At least one should be reasonable in expecting that the world will not be defied by the artificial impositions of our experience.

Ultimately, our knowledge of the world is descriptive, not prescriptive; and we exceed that remit at our peril.

The world's great religions all suggest we temper if not wholly abandon our expectations.  From the moral humility asked of a Christian who expects redemption to come from outside themselves through grace, to the Buddha who teaches us to detach ourselves from Dukkha and the illusions of the ego, to the Taoist who tells us to be as the uncarved block.  Even the best of our science tells us that we are to measure real success in terms of failure and surprise, rather than confirmation and fulfilled expectations.

I expect to still have to deal with people on a day-to-day basis, and I think that my assumptions about how to do so have become outdated.  So I need to reset.  I have a hard time understanding how and why people react to me as they do.

This is not an unreasonable question: How do I reset?  People have other experiences than I do, and might have some useful suggestions.

So minus avoiding people altogether (I don't own a dog and our cat hates me), I wonder how well other atheists get along with regular people.

(I am quite sure I would still be disappointed with people even without specific expectations in certain situations, by the mere fact that people so often surprise me, as if they were speaking a different language or didn't live in the same world.)

[zebo-the-fat]

You expect to have expectations?  At least one should be reasonable in expecting that the world will not be defied by the artificial impositions of our experience.

Ultimately, our knowledge of the world is descriptive, not prescriptive; and we exceed that remit at our peril.

The world's great religions all suggest we temper if not wholly abandon our expectations.  From the moral humility asked of a Christian who expects redemption to come from outside themselves through grace, to the Buddha who teaches us to detach ourselves from Dukkha and the illusions of the ego, to the Taoist who tells us to be as the uncarved block.  Even the best of our science tells us that we are to measure real success in terms of failure and surprise, rather than confirmation and fulfilled expectations.

I expect to still have to deal with people on a day-to-day basis, and I think that my assumptions about how to do so have become outdated.  So I need to reset.  I have a hard time understanding how and why people react to me as they do.

This is not an unreasonable question: How do I reset?  People have other experiences than I do, and might have some useful suggestions.

So minus avoiding people altogether (I don't own a dog and our cat hates me), I wonder how well other atheists get along with regular people.

(I am quite sure I would still be disappointed with people even without specific expectations in certain situations, by the mere fact that people so often surprise me, as if they were speaking a different language or didn't live in the same world.)

As far as I know, Atheists are regular people!
I try to get on with everyone unless they give a reason not to, here in the UK it is rare to mention religion, most people simply don't care which (if any) invisible friend you have. (I worked with a guy for about 18 years, never knew he was a catholic until he died and I went to his funeral, the subject simply didn't come up)

[paulpablo]

I questioned human nature around my early teenage years when I found out about child molesters, animal torturers, genicides, rapists and so on. Surely a recent election and environmental ignorance can't be that bad.

Saying that the minor things do piss me off now. The other day in work someone had left the hot water tap turned on and the light on and just left the toilets like that so when I came in it was like a sauna and I spent about 10 minutes of the day genuinely asking myself what kind of a human does this. Even thinking about it now I don't know what kind of an adult does that. My kids have better toilet training.

There's maniacs, people who just don't agree with you and annoying people everywhere but surely you established that earlier on in life, you said your old i don't know how old. I'm 40 and I'm pretty jaded.

[arewethereyet]

I am old, semi-retired, and an introvert. It's not unusual for me to not leave the house for multiple days in a row. And I am good with that. I have my hobbies, my dogs, cat, and parrot to keep me company....though I am seldom one to need company.

Husband is in a much better mood with his new job situation.

If I had to be out in the world like I used to, I don't know if I could stand it anymore. I have definitely entered the "Get Off My Lawn" phase of my life.

When I do venture out on the rare occasion, I feel myself getting irritated easily by a lot of people. I can make small talk. I always open doors for people and try to be civil.

I have also reached the age where I watch kids (read - anyone under 40) and wonder if they are all orphans. I'd have been smacked into next week by my parents if I acted the way I see people act.

But - and this has always been true - I am never too busy to compliment a person's work...for example seeking out a manager or even sending an email. I try to be the opposite of a Karen and let people know...especially those with the crappiest jobs...that they are doing a good job and deserve recognition.

I used to stand up and protest when I saw bad behavior but I am too old and too tiny now and would quite possibly get my ass shot.

It helps having always been more introverted and it helps that I had to learn to entertain myself as my parents would ground me for just about anything...often up to a month at a time. I was trained for this.

[Angrboda]

I think we all have things we try to forget having done. And when we think of ourselves, we only recall the good bits.

I'm always surprised at the things that people make up on social media. But I know they do it to promote their accounts so that the things they say have a better chance of being noticed, and some to make money off the things. Having spent time on X, I know how strong the urge to be heard can be. And who wouldn't want money if you didn't have to really do anything for it except post shit.

[Ivan Denisovich]

Humans are and were shitty and immoral species. Cursory look at the history filled with wars, genocides and all matter of crimes suffice to see it.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I go back to Solzhenitsyn, that the line between good and evil runs down the middle of every person's heart, and that line fluctuates hither and yon throughout a person's life, or even day-by-day. You can be a great person one day and a shitbag the next. I know that's true of me. So I don't judge all men by a single standard, or even judge one person by one day's actions, but rather by a collation of their behavior.

And like I said above, my dog is a much better person than the people I've met.

[Ivan Denisovich]

I go back to Solzhenitsyn, that the line between good and evil runs down the middle of every person's heart, and that line fluctuates hither and yon throughout a person's life, or even day-by-day. You can be a great person one day and a shitbag the next. I know that's true of me. So I don't judge all men by a single standard, or even judge one person by one day's actions, but rather by a collation of their behavior.

In my experience shitbags are shitbags consistently even if they are nice to some people they interact with. I do judge all people by a single standard - anyone voting for fascists isn't a good human being no matter how many grannies they helped to cross the street or how many kittens they rescued. Supporting inhuman policies far outweigh any common act of kindness in my view.

And like I said above, my dog is a much better person than the people I've met.

Dog shit is better "person" than millions of people as while it might stink and often end on one boots it at least does not support fascist policies, police brutality or religious extremism.

[AFTT47]

Humans are and were shitty and immoral species. Cursory look at the history filled with wars, genocides and all matter of crimes suffice to see it.

That's too pessimistic IMHO. Yes, history is bleak but I see slow progress over time. There are peaks and valleys but I see a general upward trend. We are definitely in a valley now and we need to climb out of it but we need to have faith that we will.

Yes, I admit that isn't very logical (my optimistic Secular Humanism side asserting itself) but what's the alternative? Wallowing in self-despair and self-pity? What good will that do us? We need to plow on and have faith that the better part of our nature will prevail. It's worked before. The Inquisition is long-gone. No longer do we have death wagons collecting our dead and beating to death those who claim they are getting better and going for a walk (Apologies to Monty Python).

We are making progress. It's slower than we would like but I believe it's happening. It keeps me going.