Human Nature

[Alan V]

As a Democrat, I consider that a cynical assessment.  After all, before the other Democrats dropped out after South Carolina, they were splitting the Democratic voters between them.

As an independent, it strikes me as fairly plausible. Sanders had a small but vocal base here in Central Texas. While I doubt they voted for Trump en masse, I'm sure at least a few did -- and more to the point, many sat out the polling altogether.

At least Sanders was a real populist.  Trump was a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing populist.  It's just too bad that too many Americans fell for Trump's lies.

As I said before, Trump was a super-normal stimulus: a tall, white billionaire who said everything with confidence.  Too bad he was also a demagogue just trying to deceive people.

That's why I see the failings of human nature to be at the heart of our present political problems.  We are now deeply immersed in a huge national psychodrama.

And of course that does little to help climate change, brutal wars overseas, our democratic institutions, our economy, or even people's tendencies to rationalize bad decisions.

[Belacqua]

Here you're talking about what SHOULD be true, and I certainly agree with you. 

People should put in the necessary effort, and they should be too smart to get fooled quite so easily. 

I also think that people with power and media clout should make it easier for people to achieve those things. 

But I guess we're kind of back at the OP now -- do we think that those things will ever be possible in the real world? Or are we justified in being gloomy, and thinking there's no hope?

I sort of tend toward the latter, I guess.

Putting bare minimum of effort into informed voting is more than possible, it is practiced by millions of people around the world. If even one person can be arsed to think others can be too. Question is if there will be enough voters who realize that interest of billionaires aren't the same as theirs.

Apparently you have more hope for possible better futures than I do. I'm glad there's someone who hasn't given up!

[The Grand Nudger]

As an independent, it strikes me as fairly plausible. Sanders had a small but vocal base here in Central Texas. While I doubt they voted for Trump en masse, I'm sure at least a few did -- and more to the point, many sat out the polling altogether.

At least Sanders was a real populist.  Trump was a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing populist.  It's just too bad that too many Americans fell for Trump's lies.

Reich wing fauxpulism.

I love Bels "lying about biden" schtick, just because it's so very meta. There was, ofc, no lying about biden..but way to tell us you've been drinking maga koolaid without saying so. Meanwhile demented donny's out there actually shambling around like a geriatric loose from memory facility.

[Thumpalumpacus]

As an independent, it strikes me as fairly plausible. Sanders had a small but vocal base here in Central Texas. While I doubt they voted for Trump en masse, I'm sure at least a few did -- and more to the point, many sat out the polling altogether.

At least Sanders was a real populist.  Trump was a wolf-in-sheep's-clothing populist.  It's just too bad that too many Americans fell for Trump's lies.

As I said before, Trump was a super-normal stimulus: a tall, white billionaire who said everything with confidence.  Too bad he was also a demagogue just trying to deceive people.

That's why I see the failings of human nature to be at the heart of our present political problems.  We are now deeply immersed in a huge national psychodrama.

And of course that does little to help climate change, brutal wars overseas, our democratic institutions, our economy, or even people's tendencies to rationalize bad decisions.

Right, but for whatever reason, he spoke to enough people that Democrats didn't speak to, and that includes Berniebros who either flipped or sat out. I also think that in the denouement of the 2024 election, the way the DNC went after their progressives is pretty telling. Rather than explicate why Dems are different from Repubs, the Democrat leadership went after the one wing of their party that actually draws a real difference.

They then spent two months eating each other about what went wrong. How are Dems approaching this to help renormalize things like democracy or ecology? How are they selling their "program", such as it is, at all?

Sad to say, the American polity clearly doesn't care about democracy or ecology or foreign affairs.

[Ivan Denisovich]

Putting bare minimum of effort into informed voting is more than possible, it is practiced by millions of people around the world. If even one person can be arsed to think others can be too. Question is if there will be enough voters who realize that interest of billionaires aren't the same as theirs.

Apparently you have more hope for possible better futures than I do. I'm glad there's someone who hasn't given up!

It's not hope but observation. There are people doing informed voting therefore informed voting is possible. Question remains the same as in quoted post and I'm not quite sure that answer will be positive.

[Deesse23]

I apologize for giving this thread a political turn.

I think that pointing to Trump as evidence for the dark side of human nature is a reasonable argument. My point has been that politics has been full of such evidence for a long time. Trump is the current and most noise-making example.

.....and here it is again: The equivocation, the mitigation of very specific actions of very specific people.

[Deesse23]

He just admitted that he thinks all politicians are liars/criminals. He is a victim of the 21st century of bullshit and propaganda.

The smart ones just figured that your can't sell your lie /crime straight away, if it's too absurd. No you first have to convince the gullible that ALL people/politicians are liars. THEN you sell your lie.

It's a variant of: ...drag then down to your level and beat them with experience.

.. And Bel fell for that script. Line, hook and sinker

To be fair majority of politicians are liars (at least in Poland). This is why such strategy finds so easy purchase among people. Far right greatest strength is in deplorable state of mainstream politics.

I am a liar too, and i bet you have lied too, several times. Does that make us equal to Trump?
No, but once you sell to somebody that everybody lies often/very/often/all the time, you have paved the road to selling your specific lie: It just another lie, why not believe it? You already believe a lot of stuff from other liars, or dont care about its wrongness, RIGHT?

Here, i have some "alternative facts". Facts? What are facts, who has facts? Im gonna make your head swivel now with 1000x more BS im gonna throw at you, once you are drowned in BS, and once you cont tell facts from fabrication.....well here are my (alternative) facts again. Dont look so bad anyomre, dont they, considering you cant trust anyone else either anymore too, right?

[Ivan Denisovich]

I am a liar too, and i bet you have lied too, several times. Does that make us equal to Trump?

I sure lied several times, everybody does. It does not make us equal to trump.

No, but once you sell to somebody that everybody lies often/very/often/all the time, you have paved the road to selling your specific lie: It just another lie, why not believe it? You already believe a lot of stuff from other liars, or dont care about its wrongness, RIGHT?

You have it wrong. Narrative that far right and putin pushes about politicians being liars work precisely because politicians are liars. I'm not intimately familiar with other countries political scene but that's simple fact in Poland. Politicians lie so much that narrative pushed by far right is actually true for once, at least when it comes to other right wingers, who make circa 90% of Poland political scene. Perhaps in other countries this is simply bullshit pushed by far right tools to make everybody look bad but in this bantustan where every lie under the sun was uttered and gov is about as trustworthy as likes of lepen or meloni it's simple fact. Politicians are liars and those who aren't simply does not matter because populace is so used to bullshit that it craves it.

Here, i have some "alternative facts". Facts? What are facts, who has facts? Im gonna make your head swivel now with 1000x more BS im gonna throw at you, once you are drowned in BS, and once you cont tell facts from fabrication.....well here are my (alternative) facts again. Dont look so bad anyomre, dont they, considering you cant trust anyone else either anymore too, right?

There are no such thing as alternative facts but there sure are politicians who lie constantly. Problem with far right isn't that they're always wrong, it's that they might occasionally correctly identify the issue but cure they offer is worse than disease. When it comes to polish politicians narrative about them lying constantly is mostly true and it matters little that it is pushed by fascists. Facts don't change because they're spoken by walking sacks of shit. There is no use in pretending that politicians are honest when they're not - one simply must realize that other side [that is side pushing above mentioned narrative] is filled with liars too and choose those who lie the least and not about something important.

[Sheldon]

That all politicians are flawed, and therefore lie, does not of course make them all equally duplicitous, nor are those lies equally harmful of course. For me this rather trivial truth is less relevant, than what they lie about, and why. 

Trump is not necessarily a danger because he is prepared to lie, but many of his lies are demonstrably pernicious.

[Ivan Denisovich]

That all politicians are flawed, and therefore lie, does not of course make them all equally duplicitous, nor are those lies equally harmful of course. For me this rather trivial truth is less relevant, than what they lie about, and why. 

Of course but when pm of one country blames beavers for the flood or suspends constitutional right to asylum under claim that refugees are part of "hybrid war" then surely one can be concerned (and those are just more striking examples, though I suppose that promising 100 things will be done in 100 days of ruling deserve mention). When politicians made absurd claims about disaster that resulted in loss in milliards of zlotys (circa 3mld Euro) or play with constitution under some idiotic pretext to gain far right support it is more than concerning. For me thanks to living here it is clear as day that Poland politicians lie often and not about inconsequential things (though I guess they lie about small crap too).

Trump is not necessarily a danger because he is prepared to lie, but many of his lies are demonstrably pernicious.

trump is danger because he is fascist even if he is too dumb to realize it.