Natural Selection Seems Insufficient

[Jal]

So, you have no fridge magnets in your house?

Your axiom is still incoherent.

Boru

I'm sure each of those magnets is stamped, "Held in place by God."  As are the molecules that are held together by God, the neutrons and protons bound by God, as are the electrons moving along their way in every wire in his house.

When you try to sit next to your wife or girlfriend, does your body consistently slam into her, potentially injuring her? I mean, after all, you have an attraction to her, right?

When I was a kid, my science teacher told me that electrons are "attracted" to protons. What the HELL does that even mean? Electrons "love" protons? Even if they felt love/attraction for the proton, what exactly pushes them in that direction? Or maybe the electron is trying to sit next to his girlfriend but inadvertently slams in to her every time? 


Oh that's right - at work here is some intangible electric field that magically/ mysteriously pushes tangible things. Of course that works, I suppose, only if the particle is properly excited/ charged. What the hell does THAT mean?

You guys can mock me all you want, but I speculate someday God will show you how silly/ naive you were to swallow the indoctrination of scientists without sufficiently reflecting on what they are asking you to believe. For me, some of those doctrine require more blind faith than I can seem to muster.

[Angrboda]

Assorted questions: Can things be more than the sum of their parts?

If not, how did God's nascent consciousness improve itself?

If so, can a sum made up of dead particles be greater than the dead particles themselves? If so, what prevents abiogenesis or consciousness evolving?

[Jal]

Assorted questions:  Can things be more than the sum of their parts?

If not, how did God's nascent consciousness improve itself?

If so, can a sum made up of dead particles be greater than the dead particles themselves?  If so, what prevents abiogenesis or consciousness evolving?

Consciousness is a mystery filled with an amazing variety of experiences such as:
- Self-awareness
- Taste, touch, smell, sight, sound, vision
- emotions
- humor 
- perception of beauty
- conscience
- memory
- free will

I don't know why anything exists. It's a mystery. Similarly, I don't know why consciousness exists, and why it offers such a rich/diverse variety of experiences.

SIMILARLY, to answer your question, I don't know why it can develop, that is, I don't know why each of the experiences in the above list can become more acute/ distinct over time.
That's part of the mystery.

But for me, an increase in acuteness is a possibility easier to swallow than the whole notion of dead particles transitioning to consciousness, PRECISESLY  because consciousness is so rich/ complex/ involved. 

Just my opinion, I can't prove it.

[Angrboda]

Assorted questions:  Can things be more than the sum of their parts?

If not, how did God's nascent consciousness improve itself?

If so, can a sum made up of dead particles be greater than the dead particles themselves?  If so, what prevents abiogenesis or consciousness evolving?

Consciousness is a mystery filled with an amazing variety of experiences such as:
- Self-awareness
- Taste, touch, smell, sight, sound, vision
- emotions
- humor 
- perception of beauty
- conscience
- memory
- free will

I don't know why anything exists. It's a mystery. Similarly, I don't know why consciousness exists, and why it offers such a rich/diverse variety of experiences.

SIMILARLY, to answer your question, I don't know why it can develop, that is, I don't know why each of the experiences in the above list can become more acute/ distinct over time.
That's part of the mystery.

But for me, an increase in acuteness is a possibility easier to swallow than the whole notion of dead particles transitioning to consciousness, PRECISESLY  because consciousness is so rich/ complex/ involved. 

Just my opinion, I can't prove it.

Consciousness at one end of the scale is complex, how simple can it be at the other end? You've already admitted that a dead particle, a rock, possesses the attribute, so there really is no gap that is insurmountable in either case. A dead particle, in your view, has the potential for the full complexity at the other end of the scale. So where is your objection rooted? You seem to have eliminated the obstacle.

Just as a side note. Incredulity seems to do a lot of work for your worldview. Is that wise?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

So, you have no fridge magnets in your house?

Your axiom is still incoherent.

Boru

Newton wondered whether gravity might be the hand of God. The Bible seems to suggest as much because it suggests that God upholds all the stars, for example it says "He sustains all things by the word of his power".

My view is that all the so-called "forces" are God leveraging His own physical hand to create the kind of environment/ world that He desired us to cohabitate  and co-labor in. That includes magnetism, electro-magnetism, gravity, electricity, and nuclear forces.

If your God can do all of that, why couldn’t It have set things up to work on their own without Its constant intervention? You’ve reduced your Imaginary Friend to the status of an incompetent engineer who can’t step away from the machine for even a second without it blowing itself all to flinders.

Boru

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Assorted questions:  Can things be more than the sum of their parts?

If not, how did God's nascent consciousness improve itself?

If so, can a sum made up of dead particles be greater than the dead particles themselves?  If so, what prevents abiogenesis or consciousness evolving?

Consciousness is a mystery filled with an amazing variety of experiences such as:
- Self-awareness
- Taste, touch, smell, sight, sound, vision
- emotions
- humor 
- perception of beauty
- conscience
- memory
- free will

I don't know why anything exists. It's a mystery. Similarly, I don't know why consciousness exists, and why it offers such a rich/diverse variety of experiences.

SIMILARLY, to answer your question, I don't know why it can develop, that is, I don't know why each of the experiences in the above list can become more acute/ distinct over time.
That's part of the mystery.

But for me, an increase in acuteness is a possibility easier to swallow than the whole notion of dead particles transitioning to consciousness, PRECISESLY  because consciousness is so rich/ complex/ involved. 

Just my opinion, I can't prove it.

So we’ve seen.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

"It only compels us to make the attempt."   I don't think you're getting the point. Your words seem to imply:
1. We feel hunger.
2. Based on that hunger, we change our present course of direction. We INITIATE an attempt to procure food.

Again, that's like the third domino in a rightward fall saying, "I think I'll go left" - and than manages to do it!

Or like the conceptual dominoes in a feedback loop that then become some input at a prior action point in a given system. There’s not much else to say here except that is literally how almost every piece of simple automation you use in your everyday life works…and also how the biological structures involved in this behavioral response of ours look to be organized.

The truth is, dominos do not INITIATE anything. Blind causality forces them to fall in a particular direction, whether they like it or not.

A  deterministic Natural Selection is doomed to failure.  I see no remedy for this problem. If you can't acknowledge this problem, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

- and yet the thermostat works, the toilet works. If that’s all that our far more complicated brains (or souls) could do…it’s fairly easy to see how why and that natural selection could use that. People with better feedback loops in their souls would outperform people with poorer ones, or without them…assuming this soul stuff is a heritable trait… we would expect there to be more people with ability or behavior in a breeding population over time. That’s it, that’s all, it’s not super fancy. It doesn’t need gods or souls to work…but it would also work if there were gods or souls.

I want to point out again, that the content of your objection…that hunger is irrelevant to all this, actually fits the god breathed non natural selecting world -much- better. In a world without gods shaped by natural selection hunger exists because feedback loops are effective regardless of whether the car has a driver. In a world created by a god with no natural selection….hunger does what….exactly? How? Why? Guy was sitting g up there bored on a Tuesday and thought @imma make these poor fuckers feel hunger for the lulz”…..?

If we’re at an impasse, so be it, we could move on to the other examples….but I fear this will just keep happening…because the things you picked….of all the truly difficult to understand things about consciousness….are the truly easy set of biological imperatives.

[Jal]

Consciousness is a mystery filled with an amazing variety of experiences such as:
- Self-awareness
- Taste, touch, smell, sight, sound, vision
- emotions
- humor 
- perception of beauty
- conscience
- memory
- free will

I don't know why anything exists. It's a mystery. Similarly, I don't know why consciousness exists, and why it offers such a rich/diverse variety of experiences.

SIMILARLY, to answer your question, I don't know why it can develop, that is, I don't know why each of the experiences in the above list can become more acute/ distinct over time.
That's part of the mystery.

But for me, an increase in acuteness is a possibility easier to swallow than the whole notion of dead particles transitioning to consciousness, PRECISESLY  because consciousness is so rich/ complex/ involved. 

Just my opinion, I can't prove it.

Consciousness at one end of the scale is complex, how simple can it be at the other end?  You've already admitted that a dead particle, a rock, possesses the attribute, so there really is no gap that is insurmountable in either case.  A dead particle, in your view, has the potential for the full complexity at the other end of the scale.  So where is your objection rooted?  You seem to have eliminated the obstacle.

Just as a side note.  Incredulity seems to do a lot of work for your worldview.  Is that wise?

?
A rock isn't dead particles. I don't believe in dead particles.  All particles are conscious, most to a negligibly acute degree of self-awareness.

[Jal]

Newton wondered whether gravity might be the hand of God. The Bible seems to suggest as much because it suggests that God upholds all the stars, for example it says "He sustains all things by the word of his power".

My view is that all the so-called "forces" are God leveraging His own physical hand to create the kind of environment/ world that He desired us to cohabitate  and co-labor in. That includes magnetism, electro-magnetism, gravity, electricity, and nuclear forces.

If your God can do all of that, why couldn’t It have set things up to work on their own without Its constant intervention? You’ve reduced your Imaginary Friend to the status of an incompetent engineer who can’t step away from the machine for even a second without it blowing itself all to flinders.

Boru

?
If He doesn't enforce gravity with His own hand, what will enforce it? 

Not getting you.  How about you tell me. Tell me how all these forces can exist without His hand constantly intervening (on my assumption that the intangible cannot impact the tangible).

[Jal]

"It only compels us to make the attempt."   I don't think you're getting the point. Your words seem to imply:
1. We feel hunger.
2. Based on that hunger, we change our present course of direction. We INITIATE an attempt to procure food.

Again, that's like the third domino in a rightward fall saying, "I think I'll go left" - and than manages to do it!

Or like the conceptual dominoes in a feedback loop that then become some input at a prior action point in a given system.  There’s not much else to say here except that is literally how almost every piece of simple automation you use in your everyday life works…and also how the biological structures involved in this behavioral response of ours look to be organized.  

The truth is, dominos do not INITIATE anything. Blind causality forces them to fall in a particular direction, whether they like it or not.

A  deterministic Natural Selection is doomed to failure.  I see no remedy for this problem. If you can't acknowledge this problem, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

- and yet the thermostat works, the toilet works.  If that’s all that our far more complicated brains (or souls) could do…it’s fairly easy to see how why and that natural selection could use that.  People with better feedback loops in their souls would outperform people with poorer ones, or without them…assuming this soul stuff is a heritable trait… we would expect there to be more people with ability or behavior in a breeding population over time.  That’s it, that’s all, it’s not super fancy.  It doesn’t need gods or souls to work…but it would also work if there were gods or souls.

I want to point out again, that the content of your objection…that hunger is irrelevant to all this, actually fits the god breathed non natural selecting world -much- better.  In a world without gods shaped by natural selection hunger exists because feedback loops are effective regardless of whether the car has a driver.  In a world created by a god with no natural selection….hunger does what….exactly?  How?  Why?  Guy was sitting g up there bored on a Tuesday and thought @imma make these poor fuckers feel hunger for the lulz”…..?

If we’re at an impasse, so be it, we could move on to the other examples….but I fear this will just keep happening…because the things you picked….of all the truly difficult to understand things about consciousness….are the truly easy set of biological imperatives.

Maybe one more attempt to make sure you understand me.

Last night I hungered to see a movie.  I personally doubt that the Universe cares whether I goto a movie, I don't think it will adjust its domino effect to help me accomplish that.

Yet oddly enough, my body started donning attire, it pocketed the wallet, grabbed the keys, it ambled to the car, availed of navigation, parked at the theater,  purchased a ticket, used the facilities, found the correct auditorium, and pointed its eyes toward the screen.

Coincidentally, that entire set of dominos (i.e. actions) just HAPPENED  to fall AT THE SAME MOMENT that I happened to hungered for a movie.  Lucky me! Because if this deterministic Universe had just so happened to move my body in a DIFFERENT direction, my hunger to see a movie would never have been satiated.

Either I am going to believe in:
(A) Libertarian free will that moves my body toward the movie theater..
(B) An amazing set of coincidences that happen to CONSISTENTLY land me in the theater every time I hunger to see a movie.

I'm going with theory A. And if you still don't get why, I don't think I can do more to explain it.  Again, we'll agree to disagree.