Natural Selection Seems Insufficient

[Angrboda]

The funny thing is, if I were to pull my daughter into the pool, that wouldn't be me doing it, because no part of myself ever makes actual contact with any part of anything else.  It's all mediated by invisible forces.  But if these invisible forces are actually God acting, then I can never be guilty of anything.  I could stab my neighbor to death.  But accordingly, that's not me stabbing my neighbor, that's God in his wisdom pushing the atoms of the knife around in tandem with the motion of my hand.  So ultimately everything which occurs is an act of God in his world.  Pull my daughter into the pool?  God did it.  Murder my neighbor?  God did it.  Cheat on my spouse?  God did it.  I'm basically sinless because I've never done anything wrong.  God did!

I've heard that argument before, but it doesn't hold water (pun intended).  God isn't the only force acting in the world.

When you throw a punch:
-1.  free will moves your fist. That's the primary controlling impetus.

Is my will tangible? Let's assume that I know my will is the test. So I start willing stupid things knowing God will play along. I have no real intent, but God still commits the wrong. I'm blameless because I'm not seriously bad, but God punishes the same as someone who is bad. Does intent not matter?

- 2. your muscles contribute some momentum as well.

How are my muscles contributing to momentum? That's a physical impossibility as the momentum of the knife is wholly from God's intervention.

Anyway, if I hire a hitman to kill my neighbor, both I and the hitman are equally guilty. So any bad thing a human has done, God is guilty of as well.

He will either or punish or reward you based only on point 1, and your motives for the punch.

Sounds like a regime where thought crime is punishable. If I passed a law that made it illegal to believe in God, surely you'd think that a corrupt law. So why is God punishing me for my thoughts any less corrupt?

Every molecule of my body, every electron, proton, and neutron is positioned by God. What is there left for me to will? Is God bound to abide my will? Who is the puppet then?

[The Grand Nudger]

Maybe one more attempt to make sure you understand me.

Last night I hungered to see a movie.  I personally doubt that the Universe cares whether I goto a movie, I don't think it will adjust its domino effect to help me accomplish that.

Yeah, I doubt you hungered to see a movie unless that movie was about food…which is, fwiw, how you’re compelled to buy a lot of shit you might not otherwise get. Why is the produce at the entrance of the store and all the great deals spread across every endcap?

The operator is manipulating your biological response to known stimulus and your inability to control the resulting impulses. Our your soul response and soul weakness. Take your pick.

I also doubt the universe is going to bend to your desire to watch a movie. You’re gonna need more than just that. A ticket…for starters.

Yet oddly enough, my body started donning attire, it pocketed the wallet, grabbed the keys, it ambled to the car, availed of navigation, parked at the theater,  purchased a ticket, used the facilities, found the correct auditorium, and pointed its eyes toward the screen.

Yep. The stimulus machine seeks out stimulus, news at 11.

Coincidentally, that entire set of dominos (i.e. actions) just HAPPENED  to fall AT THE SAME MOMENT that I happened to hungered for a movie.  Lucky me! Because if this deterministic Universe had just so happened to move my body in a DIFFERENT direction, my hunger to see a movie would never have been satiated.

……which is exactly what happens to people all the time…….? Whether it’s our desire for food or our desire for stimulus. Willing alone seems incapable of making it so. Another big problem for another one of your earlier assertions about the power of mind over matter…but I digress.

Either I am going to believe in:
(A) Libertarian free will that moves my body toward the movie theater..
(B) An amazing set of coincidences that happen to CONSISTENTLY land me in the theater every time I hunger to see a movie.

I'm going with theory A. And if you still don't get why, I don't think I can do more to explain it.  Again, we'll agree to disagree.

Does your libertarian free will provide you with survival and reproduction advantages, in your estimation? Is it heritable, in your estimation? Congratulations, that’s the kind of stuff natural selection can use. Why -wouldn’t- natural selection produce more and more of this libertarian free will if it can do what you think it’s doing?

[Jal]

I've heard that argument before, but it doesn't hold water (pun intended).  God isn't the only force acting in the world.

When you throw a punch:
-1.  free will moves your fist. That's the primary controlling impetus.

Is my will tangible?  Let's assume that I know my will is the test.  So I start willing stupid things knowing God will play along.  I have no real intent, but God still commits the wrong.  I'm blameless because I'm not seriously bad, but God punishes the same as someone who is bad.  Does intent not matter?

- 2. your muscles contribute some momentum as well.

How are my muscles contributing to momentum?  That's a physical impossibility as the momentum of the knife is wholly from God's intervention.

Anyway, if I hire a hitman to kill my neighbor, both I and the hitman are equally guilty.  So any bad thing a human has done, God is guilty of as well.

He will either or punish or reward you based only on point 1, and your motives for the punch.

Sounds like a regime where thought crime is punishable.  If I passed a law that made it illegal to believe in God, surely you'd think that a corrupt law.  So why is God punishing me for my thoughts any less corrupt?

Conscience is the only possible law.  Fidelity to conscience means striving to do what is right (and even think what is right), to the best of our knowledge and ability. God will judge us on that principle alone, except insofar as He forgives our sins by virtue of Christ's atonement on the cross.

One problem is that all sinned in Adam.  You are Adam (Early in this thread I mentioned each of us is a small piece of his original sin-stained soul)

[Jal]

Maybe one more attempt to make sure you understand me.

Last night I hungered to see a movie.  I personally doubt that the Universe cares whether I goto a movie, I don't think it will adjust its domino effect to help me accomplish that.

Yeah, I doubt you hungered to see a movie unless that movie was about food…which is, fwiw, how you’re compelled to buy a lot of shit you might not otherwise get.  Why is the produce at the entrance of the store and all the great deals spread across every endcap?

The operator is manipulating your biological response to known stimulus and your inability to control the resulting impulses.  Our your soul response and soul weakness.  Take your pick.  

I also doubt the universe is going to bend to your desire to watch a movie.  You’re gonna need more than just that.  A ticket…for starters.  

Yet oddly enough, my body started donning attire, it pocketed the wallet, grabbed the keys, it ambled to the car, availed of navigation, parked at the theater,  purchased a ticket, used the facilities, found the correct auditorium, and pointed its eyes toward the screen.

Yep.  The stimulus machine seeks out stimulus, news at 11.  

Coincidentally, that entire set of dominos (i.e. actions) just HAPPENED  to fall AT THE SAME MOMENT that I happened to hungered for a movie.  Lucky me! Because if this deterministic Universe had just so happened to move my body in a DIFFERENT direction, my hunger to see a movie would never have been satiated.

……which is exactly what happens to people all the time…….?  Whether it’s our desire for food or our desire for stimulus. Willing alone seems incapable of making it so.  Another big problem for another one of your earlier assertions about the power of mind over matter…but I digress.

Either I am going to believe in:
(A) Libertarian free will that moves my body toward the movie theater..
(B) An amazing set of coincidences that happen to CONSISTENTLY land me in the theater every time I hunger to see a movie.

I'm going with theory A. And if you still don't get why, I don't think I can do more to explain it.  Again, we'll agree to disagree.

Does your libertarian free will provide you with survival and reproduction advantages, in your estimation?  Is it heritable, in your estimation?  Congratulations, that’s the kind of stuff natural selection can use.  Why -wouldn’t- natural selection produce more and more of this libertarian free will if it can do what you think it’s doing?

As I forepromised, at this point I'll just agree to disagree.

[Angrboda]

"If God manually pushes a rock down a hill, and God manually parts the Red Sea, then parting the Red Sea isn't a miracle. It's just Tuesday. In your world, God walking on water is the exact same amount of effort as a drop of rain falling. You’ve accidentally destroyed the concept of miracles by making everything a miracle."

Aren't the miracles why we should follow Christ. You've made the resurrection nothing special. Anybody could have resurrected, so who cares that Christ was the one he chose to resurrect.

That's no more miraculous than me blowing my nose. God intervenes to cause both.

[Jal]

How are my muscles contributing to momentum?  That's a physical impossibility as the momentum of the knife is wholly from God's intervention.

I think you're misunderstanding me. When I said all the so-called "forces" are God, I was speaking specifically of gravity, electricity, magnetism, electro-magnetism, nuclear forces. I was NOT saying, "Every impetus is God." For example I've repeatedly said that my free will moves my body, for instance when I throw a punch.

[Angrboda]

How are my muscles contributing to momentum?  That's a physical impossibility as the momentum of the knife is wholly from God's intervention.

I think you're misunderstanding me. When I said all the so-called "forces" are God, I was speaking specifically of gravity, electricity, magnetism, electro-magnetism, nuclear forces. I was NOT saying, "Every impetus is God."  For example I've repeatedly said that my free will moves my body, for instance when I throw a punch.

Every particle in my body's movement is mediated by these forces. There is no 'me' aside from God pushing particles around, the particles God is pushing around make up me. I haven't misunderstood you, you misunderstood yourself. Wherever free will resides, it is seperated from the particles of my body by a subatomic gap. My will accomplishes nothing. My will is impotent. It is God reading my mind to determine whether I move my arm, or pull my daughter in the water. If so, I will something, but God is wholly responsible for the doing. My will is forever severed from every particle that makes up 'me'. You seem to be oblivious to how matter actually works and live in a world where these subatomic gaps exist in some places but not others. Not so. It's subatomic gaps all the way down. The world consists entirely of subatomic particles, seperated by subatomic gaps, and all of it inert save for the acts of God.

Knowing this, why should I feel responsible for anything my body does? If it weren't for God co-conspiring with me, I would have done nothing. Why not blame God?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The distortion of spacetime. And because they do.

Now you tell me: You repeatedly insist that God is material and tangible. What does It look  like? How tall is It? How much does It weigh? What is Its favourite colour? What does It like for brekkie? Does It have genitalia?

Remember - one of the qualities of tangibility is that it is mensurable.

Boru

"The Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to His friend."

He permeates the entirely universe, more or less sparsely, but densely enough to track every particle, while deliberately hiding Himself from our mechanistic detections/ instruments. This permeation causes Him to assume every possible shape imaginable. In addition to all this shapeshifting, however, He maintains at least three primary shapes consistently.

These three primary shapes/parts are the Trinity.
1. The Father is shaped like a man, and is seated on a throne.
2.  The Son is shaped in the Father image, shaped just like Him, and is seated at His right hand.
3. All radiance from Him toward the earth (and in general the remainder of His Presence) is the Third Person, traditionally misnomered Holy Spirit but properly the Holy Breath/Wind. This radiation includes the Light radiating from His face, the rivers of Fire flowing from His throne (see Dan 7), and the Wind/Breath emitted when He speaks and exhales.

I don't know why He chose to cultivate three primary subdivisions of His total substance. Perhaps He felt it was the best way to reveal Himself to His people? No idea.

Those weren’t my questions.

Boru

[Jal]

"If God manually pushes a rock down a hill, and God manually parts the Red Sea, then parting the Red Sea isn't a miracle. It's just Tuesday. In your world, God walking on water is the exact same amount of effort as a drop of rain falling. You’ve accidentally destroyed the concept of miracles by making everything a miracle."

Wasn't accidental, it was intentional. I don't believe in the supernatural. God is not a sorcer/wizard/magician. God's power is identical in NATURE to our power. He moves his body by free will, just like me throwing a punch. I don't think there is any word in the Hebrew Old Testament, or Greek NT, that translates literally to "miracle". The Hebrew and Greek terms, when referring to divine acts, seem to translate to "works of power."

Aren't the miracles why we should follow Christ.  You've made the resurrection nothing special.  Anybody could have resurrected, so who cares that Christ was the one he chose to resurrect.  That's no more miraculous than me blowing my nose.  God intervenes to cause both.

You made a valid point but are skewing it hyperbolically. You are downplaying some aspects for purposes of denigration. Before you decide that God's works of power ("miracles") are unimpressive, let's consider the following.

An expert human juggler can manage only 25 balls. Now, how many pieces of matter, across 100 billion galaxies, is God managing? Quite a few, right? (And that's just in OUR universe. I suspect the Totality of matter is much larger than our universe, and He manages all that as well).

And here's something a human juggler does NOT have to concern himself with - SIMULTANEOUSLY imposing the forces of gravity, electricity, nuclear energy, magnetism, and electro-magnetism on each piece of matter as expected.

Still not impressed with what God has trained Himself to do? Ok. Then not sure what to tell you.

Aren't the miracles why we should follow Christ.  You've made the resurrection nothing special.  Anybody could have resurrected, so who cares that Christ was the one he chose to resurrect.  That's no more miraculous than me blowing my nose.  God intervenes to cause both.

The resurrection is nothing special? Have you, or any of your friends, managed to emulate it?

[Jal]

"The Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to His friend."

He permeates the entirely universe, more or less sparsely, but densely enough to track every particle, while deliberately hiding Himself from our mechanistic detections/ instruments. This permeation causes Him to assume every possible shape imaginable. In addition to all this shapeshifting, however, He maintains at least three primary shapes consistently.

These three primary shapes/parts are the Trinity.
1. The Father is shaped like a man, and is seated on a throne.
2.  The Son is shaped in the Father image, shaped just like Him, and is seated at His right hand.
3. All radiance from Him toward the earth (and in general the remainder of His Presence) is the Third Person, traditionally misnomered Holy Spirit but properly the Holy Breath/Wind. This radiation includes the Light radiating from His face, the rivers of Fire flowing from His throne (see Dan 7), and the Wind/Breath emitted when He speaks and exhales.

I don't know why He chose to cultivate three primary subdivisions of His total substance. Perhaps He felt it was the best way to reveal Himself to His people? No idea.

Those weren’t my questions.

Boru

Oh? Did you want me to focus on your genitalia question? No, I don't believe the Father and the Son have opted to endue themselves with human-like genitalia.