Church schools in Britain

[butterfingersbeck]

Although I am an atheist and my wife an agnostic, we decided that the local Church of England state primary school (US: public school) was the best local choice for our two sons now aged 7 ("W") and 10 ("T"). We applied for the elder child, stating our religious views (or rather lack thereof!) very clearly, and were pleased when he was accepted; followed a few years later by his brother. We have always explained to our children that what they believe must be their choice, and we have been careful not to try and influence them. Today, however I saw something which I found disturbing. "T"'s teacher had put on the wall a large cut-out figure of Jesus, with the title "QUESTIONS FOR JESUS" above it. On its left were pieces of paper each with a question written by a child. Fair enough. But on the right each child had written reasons WHY they believed in Jesus. They varied from "because he died for me" to "because my Mum lost her ring, prayed and then found it". Not one expressed doubt. I asked "T" what would have happened if a child had not believed in Jesus (he's currently something of an agnostic), and he said that he wasn't sure. I asked him what he had written, and he said that he couldn't remember, but that his teacher had suggested his reasons to him. It looks to me as if the teacher has ASSUMED that each child believes in Jesus (not necessarily the case, as the school has by law to accommodate a number of children from non-Christian families) and is putting words into their mouths. It would certainly upset the cosy wall-display to have a dissenting voice on a scroll next to the figure of Jesus. "Why do you believe in Jesus?" is not the right question for a teacher to ask in ANY school - "Do you believe in Jesus, and why?" is surely a fairer question.

MY question: is this behaviour legal in the UK or has the teacher overstepped the mark in this case?

[Tiberius]

Precisely the reason my children won't be going anywhere near a religious school. It's all very well to say "it's up to you to decide on your beliefs", but that doesn't mean I'm going to shove them in at the deep end and tell them to swim. There is no point putting them in a deluded system in the first place.

In answer to your question, I wouldn't expect this was illegal. It is a CofE school, so they are probably required to do some form of indoctrination. In fact, I vaguely remember doing stuff like this as a child in my school.

[allan175]

At the primary school my kids go to (normal school) they do the various religious "events" but there is definitely a bias towards christianity.

*But* it doesn't bother me, since it is exactly the same as the (Scottish) education I recieved, although my primary school being next to a church meant we actually went into a church at Easter etc.
As my elder 2 got older they realised it was all nonsense and I can see the youngest doing the same.

I see it as no worse than telling kids about Father Christmas, they reach a certain age (or, more precisely, level of understanding of the world) and realise it is just a story, similarly with religion.

[butterfingersbeck]

I see it as no worse than telling kids about Father Christmas, they reach a certain age (or, more precisely, level of understanding of the world) and realise it is just a story, similarly with religion.

But no sane adult believes in FC, whereas millions of otherwise intelligent and educated adults believe in an equally invisible, inaudible and intangible magical deity. Children either grow out of it (as I did) or they cling to it because unlike FC, no mentor will dare tell them that God is a fairy tale. The whole thing is institutionalised superstition. I call myself a "tolerant atheist" but I'm beginning to lose my patience with the God Squad...

[allan175]

I see it as no worse than telling kids about Father Christmas, they reach a certain age (or, more precisely, level of understanding of the world) and realise it is just a story, similarly with religion.

But no sane adult believes in FC, whereas millions of otherwise intelligent and educated adults believe in an equally invisible, inaudible and intangible magical deity. Children either grow out of it (as I did) or they cling to it because unlike FC, no mentor will dare tell them that God is a fairy tale. The whole thing is institutionalised superstition. I call myself a "tolerant atheist" but I'm beginning to lose my patience with the God Squad...

That's the thing though, one of their main "mentors" is me so they do learn it is just a fairytale.
You can't tell other people how to bring up their kids but you do your best for your own.

[butterfingersbeck]

That's the thing though, one of their main "mentors" is me so they do learn it is just a fairytale.
You can't tell other people how to bring up their kids but you do your best for your own.

Thanks for the reply! "T" knows about my own views regarding religion and isn't above parodying some of the drearier "Jesus songs" from school:

Original version:
When I think about the Cross
When I think of Jesus
I'm reminded of his love -
Love that never leaves me.

"T"'s version:
When I think about my boss
I think of his knickers.
They are pink and fri-illy...

I suggested "Exactly like the Vicar's" as the next line, and was accused by "T" of "making fun of Christianity"! Bah...

[Tiberius]

Christianity deserves to have the shit ripped out of it. You need to instill that on him.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Christianity deserves to have the shit ripped out of it. You need to instill that on him.

What was it Grayling said? Something like your sex, sexual orientation, culture & disabilities are generally beyond your power to control and as such should not be derided, everything else is a choice and deserves every bit of criticism it gets.

No religious, philosophical or political POV should be above a good pasting if it deserves it.

Kyu

[Darwinian]

Precisely the reason my children won't be going anywhere near a religious school. It's all very well to say "it's up to you to decide on your beliefs", but that doesn't mean I'm going to shove them in at the deep end and tell them to swim. There is no point putting them in a deluded system in the first place.

In answer to your question, I wouldn't expect this was illegal. It is a CofE school, so they are probably required to do some form of indoctrination. In fact, I vaguely remember doing stuff like this as a child in my school.

Easier said than done! If where you live is anything like here then most of the schools are either CofE or Catholic.

However, it must be said that these schools are not like pure faith schools as they are state run. However, you have to be careful as most of the teachers seem to be Christian and can't help but push their religious views onto the children, however innocent it may be to them.

Luckily my son is pretty immune to all this stuff and anything that dares question his love of evolution and natural history is instantly rejected.

It's a shame though. His school has regular visits from the local vicar and (spit) the Christian Puppet Show but they never seem to have visits from biologists, astronomers and other scientists.

Adrian: Perhaps you should approach a few schools and ask if you can give a talk about atheism, secularism and how we are in fact actually very nice people who just want to keep an open mind about the nature of reality.

[bozo]

Don't think we should allow faith schools..period.