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So i've started classing myself as an existential nihilist quite recently, some people may argue it's a bit too soon to do so but really when I first started investigating what it was I found myself agreeing with the core philosophy of it. So you know, what the hell.
Basically I just want to see how people react to it, is it something you guys see as a valid viewpoint?
Personally I am under no illusion that there has to be purpose to existance, nothing I have seen really seems to show that the world was 'created' in a specific purposeful way. I've seen other forums discuss the ideas of existential nihilism and say that it is naive and sad. But so what if it is? Frankly the only eyes I can view the universe from are my own, and what i've seen happening across the world doesn't seem like what some divine creator has made...
It is a shame, it is very depressing even. But it doesn't stop us from creating purpose for ourselves, for instance although I firmly believe that we are here without any overall purpose, it doesn't stop me from living with some purpose in my particular life.
Do what makes you happy?
The one thing that nihilism seems to imply wrongly for me is that the world we live in is sad and cruel, for me it doesn't have to be, not if we don't make it. But again this is entirely relative to us as individuals and what in particular makes us happy.
I can see this may span into a whole bunch of areas, i'm not great at starting off topics but I just want to discuss it with any of you guys, as it seems quite an interesting philosophy to me.
(May 17, 2011 at 2:52 pm)Aerzia Saerules Arktuos Wrote: Nothing matters at all, nothing 'really' about it. It is and has no meaning.
Why are you interested in discussing nothing, Napoleon666?
Meh, from the feedback it does seem as if it doesn't bloody matter after all!
I don't know really, I see it as very true in what it is. I figured many people might disagree, and say that with their 'Almighty Lord' there is purpose etc.
This is the philosophy section after all, so I wanted to see why other people might have any reasons to think that we have 'purpose'. It doesn't necessarily have to be a god, some people may view the world differently that's all I was thinking.
I just thought it might be interesting to get into, but maybe not everyone shares my interests
May 17, 2011 at 5:39 pm (This post was last modified: May 17, 2011 at 8:10 pm by Violet.)
We're just giving you a hard time... you posted a thread about nihilism for Susan's sake
I am myself a nihilistic existential determinist. The first 2 are subjectivistic positions (Nothing holds inherent meaning, therefore all meaning for all things is necessarily subjective), the last first presumes logic to be true (things must be themselves, not not be themselves, be themselves or not themselves) and then states all things that occur had a cause for them to do so.
Not only is this a 'valid' viewpoint (it is logical to be logical, so says logic), but I think it is a sound viewpoint (as I should, considering I hold it).
(May 17, 2011 at 6:48 am)Napoleon666 Wrote: So i've started classing myself as an existential nihilist quite recently, some people may argue it's a bit too soon to do so but really when I first started investigating what it was I found myself agreeing with the core philosophy of it. So you know, what the hell.
What do you consider to be the core philosophy of nihilism?
Quote:Personally I am under no illusion that there has to be purpose to existance, nothing I have seen really seems to show that the world was 'created' in a specific purposeful way. I've seen other forums discuss the ideas of existential nihilism and say that it is naive and sad. But so what if it is? Frankly the only eyes I can view the universe from are my own, and what i've seen happening across the world doesn't seem like what some divine creator has made...
It is a shame, it is very depressing even. But it doesn't stop us from creating purpose for ourselves, for instance although I firmly believe that we are here without any overall purpose, it doesn't stop me from living with some purpose in my particular life.
Do what makes you happy?
It's naive and sad to be a subjectivist? That's funny... here I thought it was those objectivists that were naive, and sadness is not inherently related to one's worldview.
And yes, all purpose is derived by each of us. If someone claims to give you a purpose, this is a lie: you took the suggestion of purpose they provided and made it your own. Logically, you cannot have purpose without it being yours (ownership being that which you possess).
Quote:The one thing that nihilism seems to imply wrongly for me is that the world we live in is sad and cruel, for me it doesn't have to be, not if we don't make it. But again this is entirely relative to us as individuals and what in particular makes us happy.
Nihilism implies precisely nothing, as it states all of itself in its name... it states that there is no such being as an 'inherent purpose'. For there to be no inherent purpose, nihilism requires subjectivism. That is the extent of what nihilism states, and it suggests nothing beyond that. The world is happy and horrible and bloody and filled with clean freaks and with beautiful landscapes that are designed as putridly as as maggots on a corpse in your breakfast cereal. These are all statements attributed to the world... not to nihilism. If 'purpose' was the only thing keeping one away from seeing sadness and perversion and from recognizing one's own limitations... I should think them far wiser and safer with that purpose removed.
Quote:I can see this may span into a whole bunch of areas, i'm not great at starting off topics but I just want to discuss it with any of you guys, as it seems quite an interesting philosophy to me.
So discuss away if you will
I'm worse at starting topics. If I don't say something sexual in the first few sentences, the thread doesn't even get to a second page. Maybe you'll have more luck
May 17, 2011 at 7:32 pm (This post was last modified: May 17, 2011 at 7:40 pm by Rayaan.)
As a theist, I believe that there's a purpose to our existence which is to acknowledge the greatness of our Creator. I think it's very unlikely that the whole universe, the earth, the millions of different animals (including ourselves), are a result of blind and purposeless forces which came about merely as an accident or some kind of a "quantum fluctuation," as some believe. Since it is not an accident, then we are not an accident either, so there's a meaning and a purpose in our lives even though people can also create their own purposes for themselves to live by. Well, at least that's what I make of my existence here.
And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that we are like a speck of dust in the enormous cosmos which includes billions of others galaxies, stars, and planets (and maybe even multiple universes). We are not THAT special, afterall, but we are still great in many ways.
Take it apart if you want to. That's my two cents for now. I have more to offer, though.
May 17, 2011 at 7:58 pm (This post was last modified: May 17, 2011 at 8:37 pm by Angrboda.)
Rayaan Wrote:As a theist, I believe that there's a purpose to our existence which is to acknowledge the greatness of our Creator. I think it's very unlikely that the whole universe, the earth, the millions of different animals (including ourselves), are a result of blind and purposeless forces which came about merely as an accident or some kind of a "quantum fluctuation," as some believe. Since it is not an accident, then we are not an accident either, so there's a meaning and a purpose in our lives even though people can also create their own purposes for themselves to live by. Well, at least that's what I make of my existence here.
This is an example of the genetic fallacy, "where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. [1]" The idea that the universe was created for a reason does not imply that our creation is on account of that or any other reason. Perhaps the universe was created for the creation of hyper intelligent insects who live one galaxy over, and we're the equivalent of pond scum -- a mere side effect of the way Allah chose to create these insects (through evolution). There's a cute story the title and author of which I don't recall [2], but it tells the story of a Christian appearing before St. Peter at the pearly gates; Peter is baffled by this visitor, and it takes several weeks of figuring it out, consulting various experts, retrieving long forgotten dusty records, to discover who this odd life-form, from some insignificant planet, in an insignificant solar system, in an insignificant galaxy, in an insignificant galactic cluster -- just who this odd peon of no consequence is, and what should be done with him.
[2] Correction. It is "The Theologian's Nightmare" by Bertrand Russell (first appearing in Fact and Fiction 1961.)
Napoleon666: I'll get back to you. I do have something to say, but I'm experiencing posting fatigue; I feel like I've done nothing but play at these forums the last two days. If I forget, feel free to poke me.
May 17, 2011 at 8:50 pm (This post was last modified: May 17, 2011 at 9:07 pm by reverendjeremiah.)
Being into absurdism (and consequently lumped into nihilism at the same time) I understand where you are coming from when you say you are tired of people talking bad about it. I personally can see great reason why people would move to nihilism and why it would be so popular.
I personally have a few beefs with nihilism:
#1 - it allows for suicide at any time for any reason, even if for no reason at all. Absurdism considers suicide to be the biggest philosophical question of all (nope, not god... imagine that?!?!). Absurdism says suicide is escaping reality, and therefore not an option. Fiath is considered "philosophical suicide" and escaping reality, and therefore not an option.
#2 - Nihilism does sometimes turn out to be negative in those who embrace it. Absurdism says the mix between the human condition and an inhuman cosmos (the absurd) should be both embraced and revolted against at the same time. This encourages a great sense of humor and a keen eye for bullshit.
#3 - Nihilism says there is no purpose outside of biological and chemical reasons, at all, ever. Absurdism says there is no INHERENT purpose between the cosmos and the human condition, but temporary purpose COULD be found in the journey..even if that journey is merely pointing out the absurd.
#4 - Nihilism says there is no god or deities at all. Absurdism brushes off the idea of gods as being an important choice, because if deities exist, then they are the cause of the absurdity, and therefore should be revolted against as well.
(May 17, 2011 at 7:32 pm)Rayaan Wrote: As a theist, I believe that there's a purpose to our existence which is to acknowledge the greatness of our Creator.
This is supposed to be a better choice? Thats like saying "Our purpose in life is to acknoweldge that a tree exists and praise how beautiful it is".
(May 17, 2011 at 7:32 pm)Rayaan Wrote: I think it's very unlikely that the whole universe, the earth, the millions of different animals (including ourselves), are a result of blind and purposeless forces which came about merely as an accident or some kind of a "quantum fluctuation," as some believe.
Sadly, for you, many highly intelligent scientists have proven the opposite. These are not "beliefs". They are theories based on evidences, as opposed to faith and just making shit up to make yourself feel better.
(May 17, 2011 at 7:32 pm)Rayaan Wrote: Since it is not an accident, then we are not an accident either, so there's a meaning and a purpose in our lives even though people can also create their own purposes for themselves to live by. Well, at least that's what I make of my existence here.
So a godless universe has to be an accident? You have to slip humanized language into something non-human? Do rocks have "accidents"? Does dirt and sand have "accidents"? So how come the universe has to be an accident? Well, because you are trying to twist words andtrick us into agreeing with your delusion. How about look up the definition of "accident" for once.
(May 17, 2011 at 7:32 pm)Rayaan Wrote: And yes, I'm well aware of the fact that we are like a speck of dust in the enormous cosmos which includes billions of others galaxies, stars, and planets (and maybe even multiple universes). We are not THAT special, afterall, but we are still great in many ways.
Take it apart if you want to. That's my two cents for now. I have more to offer, though.
I believe there is personal worth in humanity, but the denomination that you put on that worth with that suck ass purpose of "acknowledging a creator" takes away from it in my opinion
(May 17, 2011 at 7:58 pm)apophenia Wrote: This is an example of the genetic fallacy, "where a conclusion is suggested based solely on something or someone's origin rather than its current meaning or context. [1]" The idea that the universe was created for a reason does not imply that our creation is on account of that or any other reason. Perhaps the universe was created for the creation of hyper intelligent insects who live one galaxy over, and we're the equivalent of pond scum -- a mere side effect of the way Allah chose to create these insects (through evolution).
I understand what you're saying, but I wasn't implying that the universe was created JUST for us. It may have been created for other reasons, like for the creation of hyper intelligent insects, as you said. But we human beings could also have a purpose along with those insects. The two are not mutually exclusive. Therefore, I don't think that I made a genetic fallacy. There may even be other advanced civilations in other planets in distant galaxies which have their own separate religions.
(May 17, 2011 at 8:50 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: This is supposed to be a better choice? Thats like saying "Our purpose in life is to acknoweldge that a tree exists and praise how beautiful it is".
Yes, I think that's a better choice because God is an all-encompassing idea which is believed to be the source of everything whereas a tree is just an object. So, that's not a good comparison.
(May 17, 2011 at 8:50 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Sadly, for you, many highly intelligent scientists have proven the opposite. These are not "beliefs". They are theories based on evidences, as opposed to faith and just making shit up to make yourself feel better.
A lot of scientific concepts are based on evidence indeed - but not everything - such as string theory, the existence of higher dimensions, time travel, etc. Yet, there are many scientists who believe them. So the point is, they do "believe" in those things because there is no evidence for them although they can be supported within a scientific framework unlike religious beliefs.
(May 17, 2011 at 8:50 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: So a godless universe has to be an accident? You have to slip humanized language into something non-human? Do rocks have "accidents"? Does dirt and sand have "accidents"? So how come the universe has to be an accident? Well, because you are trying to twist words and trick us into agreeing with your delusion. How about look up the definition of "accident" for once.
When I said "accident," I was speaking of the idea that the universe just happened by chance or by a random event without ever being intended to be created. Sorry for the semantic confusion.
(May 17, 2011 at 8:50 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: I believe there is personal worth in humanity, but the denomination that you put on that worth with that suck ass purpose of "acknowledging a creator" takes away from it in my opinion.
I believe there is a personal worth in humanity also, but for me, believing in a Creator doesn't seem to subtract from that because I can accept both at the same time.
Nevertheless, if there really isn't a creator behind the universe, and if my religion is a complete bullshit, then I wouldn't be unwilling to accept that because then I'm free as a bird. I could do all the things that I'm not allowed to do in Islam and I don't have worry about all the sins that I have done nor worry about going to Hell for my sins. My life would be easier because I don't have to do things like pray, fast, and go to the mosque. So, I think that atheism is a much more peaceful thought than religion, and therefore, the common argument that I believe in Allah just because it makes me "feel better" is not true.
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