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As with most practices in religion I find that forcing on a child your own beliefs is repugnant.
If it is in a context of health then it would be acceptable just as operating on a child to their benefit is acceptable as they won't be able to consent. But in the context of religion, I abhor it.
In the case of religion, regardless of what has been said above, I still say that circumcision is genital mutilation due to the intentions behind it. I don't see any evidentually beneficial reasons for it. If the intention is for health and other beneficial reasons then I see it as ok, but for faith reasons just seems disgusting to me.
I will always fight against religion being forced on children.
Forcing your own beliefs on a child is not repugnant in the slightest. It's normal.
You believe killing people is bad (i hope). That freedom is good. That violence should not be the answer to everything. That being nice to other people is a good thing. You will force those beliefs on your child one way or another, like punishing him when he does something bad.
We all push our beliefs on our children because we think they will be better off holding those beliefs. The religious do the exact same thing.
When I say beliefs I am only refering to religious ones.
Teaching your child about morality and responsibility is important.
But I see a responsibilty in not forcing my opinions about other things.
I wouldn't force my political views on a child in the same way I wouldn't teach them about my religious beliefs.
I feel that raising a child neutral to things like that and let them make up their own mind is important.
It's a bit unfair to limit this principle to some beliefs and not others. To many religious people, religious beliefs are as important to a person as moral beliefs. You may not agree with them, but that IS what some feel.
Now, for political beliefs, if my child joined a neo-nazi political group, you can damn sure expect me to object and try to make him change his mind and force mine on them.
At the time of which a child could join such a group I would no longer be legally responsible for them so they could do what the want. I may not agree with them and try to change their mind, but they would no longer be a child so a reasonable discussion can take place on the topic.
And one of the reasons i feel that religion should not be forced on a child is that they are most likely not able to understand it to the same extent as an adult, the same way they probably won't understand politics to the same extent. That is the only reason I mentioned political stand points.
But when it comes down to it, it is still the choice of the parents to do so or not, so there is not really anything I could do to stop people from indoctrinating their children. I may not like it, but it is their right to do so.
Although, the thing I abhor more is the collective worship that is forced at schools. It happened to me and it still happens. Schools have a responsibilty to teach children no matter what faith they are, not to force one single faith on them.
If it's my religious belief that nobody should possess an index finger, am I free to express this belief and cut off yours?
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Einstein
When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down happy. They told me I didn't understand the assignment. I told them they didn't understand life.
I never said i supported circumcision as such, just a) it was probably not invented to make sex suck and b) everyone forces their beliefs on their children, religious or not.
If it's your beliefs that index fingers should be removed, then by all means remove yours, but dont remove your kid's and dont remove mine.
@Frankiej: A child does not understand morality as well as an adult, should we not teach them morals until they are 18 then ?
As to the one at school, i agree, and i think "faith schools" should be illegal for that reason.
Exactly, but removing my child's foreskin should be allowed? Not in my opinion
"Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds."
Einstein
When I was 5 years old, my mother always told me that happiness was the key to life. When I went to school, they asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I wrote down happy. They told me I didn't understand the assignment. I told them they didn't understand life.
A child must learn what is right and what is wrong through teaching them and through experience. I do not see morality as a similar belief as religion.
But at least we agree on the faith schools thing.
June 11, 2011 at 4:51 pm (This post was last modified: June 11, 2011 at 4:55 pm by Cinjin.)
(June 11, 2011 at 7:46 am)BloodyHeretic Wrote:
Nobody is saying one can't do it at all. All I'm saying is it must be consented to and and 8 day old baby does not in any sense give their consent to it. Some of the recent comments are to do with wanting what's best for children. With respect, I don't think it's a parents decision to make whether or not their child has surgery on their genitals when it's not necessary. Sure, when they're in a position to give informed consent, let them go ahead and have it done, but it should be their decision.
Tackattack says it's another form of religious expression. You do not have a right to religious expression when it affects other people very seriously, in this case, it affects them to about one foreskin.
Genital mutilation in girls is for precisely the purpose of dulling sexual pleasure. Women are 'baby factories', they don't need sexual pleasure getting in the way of reproduction. After all, what if they are as prone to unfaithfulness as we men are? What's the solution, oh yes, let's cut off their clitoris.
Cinjin, points 5 and 6 on your list are matters of aesthetics and attitudes. That women are grossed out by a penis in it's natural state, is just weird. That's what it's supposed to look like after all. Being Irish the situation is opposite, most are not circumcised. Nobody seems to have any problems with it here. If it's just a case of being accepted, do we really have a right to take a knife to our children's genitals? If they want to do it, when they're at an age to make an informed decision, let them, by all means.
When the bible institutes circumcision, it doesn't mention any health benefits, it merely says it's an outward sign of the abrahamic covenant, something Jews should do to show their faith. Tribal emotions basically, all 'insiders' have no foreskin, all 'outsiders' have one.
This is what I was saying though. I think you do indeed have some valid points. My personal problem in my own decision was - so does Rwandrell (and at least half of the medical community).
I already said that I didn't know for absolute sure that I made the right decision. I did what I thought (and was told) was best.
Keep in mind that points 5 and 6 were not the primary reasons for my overall decision, but they were factors I could not ignore in this country.
(June 11, 2011 at 10:36 am)Rwandrall Wrote: Forcing your own beliefs on a child is not repugnant in the slightest. It's normal.
You believe killing people is bad (i hope). That freedom is good. That violence should not be the answer to everything. That being nice to other people is a good thing. You will force those beliefs on your child one way or another, like punishing him when he does something bad.
We all push our beliefs on our children because we think they will be better off holding those beliefs. The religious do the exact same thing.
To be fair ... I push my morality on my son. Not my beliefs. He knows absolutely nothing of my Deistic views. I find the teaching of religion to children repulsive.
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