Trinity Nonsense

[Anymouse]

Concerning the idea that polytheism was interesting enough to sprinkle a dose of it into Christianity:

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The trinity bullshit is just evidence that polytheism was still interesting enough to sprinkle in a dose.

Here's how I think they came up with it:

"How is it that Jesus can forgive sins? And why does the jealous, attention hungry god of the OT suddenly need an intercessor?"

"Because Jesus IS God"

"If Jesus is God, how can God be an intercessor with himself? 'No man comes to the Father except through Me' becomes 'No man comes to Me except through Me.' This seems like a tautology."

"Um, well, you see Jesus is 'God the Son' who is a separate being from 'God the father'."

"So there are two or three gods then? I thought that was strictly forbidden by Jewish theology."

"No, no, there's only one god"

"But you just said there were..."

"You have to understand that God the Son is the same god as God the Father. They are separate persons but are of the same substance."

"WTF does that even mean?"

"Human minds can't comprehend it. It must be taken on faith."

"So, in the final analysis, is Jesus God or is Jesus not God."

"Yes."

"What?"

"When Jesus is praying to God, that's when he's fully human. When Jesus is forgiving sins, that's when he's fully divine."

"This isn't just a sloppy fix to the theological conundrum that must inevitably spring from merging strict Jewish monotheism with pagan concepts of redemption through faith in an intercessor deity is it?"

"No, no, no, it's what Jesus preached all along."

"So how come the earliest Gospels, the Synoptics, say nothing about Jesus being God, but rather making it clear that he's separate from and subordinate to God? It seems like the Johnnian Gospel was a rewrite."

"Perhaps Knuckles the torturer can better explain it to you?"

"No need! Praise Jesus!"

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I would think being a polytheist is less hypocritical. And more fun. And don't have to eat someone's body and drink their blood, like Dracula.

[Nick_A]

It isn't a matter of belief but of being open minded.

I cannot disagree more. Accepting lunacy because it is written in an old book....and actually, it isn't written in the old book it was hashed out centuries later...and then calling yourself "open-minded" is little more than chutzpah.

Be careful you are not so open minded that your brain falls out.

The positive atheist appears to have only two choices: belief or disbelief. There is no "I don't know" along with the joys of contemplation and the value of contemplating an apparent contradiction

[Zenith]

Um, I'm not quite sure what your problem is, Zen. Are you saying that you want to see this in a history book? Because it took me less than 1.5 seconds on Google to find the History of Ammianus Marcellinus in an English translation. You can't get better than a primary source.

I guess I sought on google Scythopolis death camps, perhaps that was the reason I didn't find.

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http://www.archive.org/stream/romanhisto...a_djvu.txt


It begins in Sec. 208 and continues into 210.

8. The city which was chosen to witness these fatal
scenes was Scythopolis in Palestine, which for two reasons
seemed the most suitable of all places ; first, because it
was little frequented and secondly, because it was half-
way between Antioch and Alexandria, from which city
many of those brought befogs this tribunal came.



AJ). 359.] NUMEROUS EXECUTIONS. 209

9. One of the first persons accused was Simplicius, the
son of Philip ; a man who, after having been prefect and
consul, was now impeached on the ground that he was
said to have consulted the oracle how to obtain the empire.
He was sentenced to the torture by the express command
of the emperor, who in these cases never erred on the side
of mercy ; but by some special fate he was saved from it,
and with uninjured body was condemned to distant banish-
ment.

10. The next victim was Parnasius, who had been pre-
fect of Egypt, a man of simple manners, but now in danger
of being condemned to death, and glad to escape with
exile : because lojig ago he had been heard to say that
when he left Patrse in Achaia, the place of his birth, with
the view of procuring some high office, he had in a dream
seen himself conducted on his road by several figures in
tragic robes.

11. The next was Andronicus, subsequently celebrated
for his liberal accomplishments and his poetry ; he was
brought before the court without having given any real
ground for suspicion of any kind, and defended himself so
vigorously that he was acquitted.

12. There was also Demetrius, surnamed Chytras, a
philosopher, of great age, but still firm in mind and body ;
he, when charged with having frequently offered sacrifices
in the temple of his oracle, could not deny it ; but affirmed
thai, for the sake of propitiating the deity, he had con-
stantly done so from his early youth, and not with any
idea of aiming at any higher fortune by his questions ; nor
had he known any one who had aimed at such. And
though he was long on the rack he supported it with great
constancy, never varying in his statement, till at length
he was acquitted and allowed to retire to Alexandria, where
he was bom.

13. These and a few others, justice, coming to the aid of
truth, delivered from their imminent dangers. But as
occupations extended more widely, involving numbers
without end in their snares, many perished ; some with
their bodies mangled on the rack ; others were condemned
to death and confiscation of their goods ; while Paulus kept
on inventing groundless accusations, as if he had a store
of lies on which to draw, and suggesting various pretences

210 AMMIANUS MARCELLJXUS. [Ite. XIX. C. xn.

for injuring people, so that on his nod, it may be said,
the safety of every one in the place depended.

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I'm glad you found the source. That's the best thing one could find.
However, I think you did not read all that you should: the title above (the context of the passage you have given) was "PROSECUTIONS FOR TREASON":

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14. And because in their fiery valour our men were
resolved to wipe out disgrace by glory, and were full o



A.D.359.] PROSECUTIONS FOR TREASON. 207

anger at the treachery of the foe, they slew every one
whom they met without mercy, trampling all under foot,
living, wounded, and dead alike ; so that heaps of dead
were piled up before their hands were weary of the
slaughter. For the rebels were completely overwhelmed,
some being slain, and others fleeing in fear, many of
whom implored their lives with various entreaties, but
were slaughtered with repeated wounds. And when, after
they were all destroyed, the trumpets sounded a retreat,
it was found that only a very few of our men were killed,
and these had either been trampled down at first, or had
perished from the insufficiency of their armour to resist
the violence of tho enemy.

15. But the most glorious death was that of Cella, the
tribune of the Scutarii, who at the beginning of the
uproar set the example of plunging first into the middle of
the Sarmatian host.

16. After these blood-stained transactions, Constantius
took what precautions prudence suggested for the security
of his frontiers, and then returned to Sirmium, having
avenged himself on the perfidity of his enemies. And
having there settled everything which the occasion re-
quired, he quitted Sirmium and went to Constantinople,
that by being nearer to the East, he might remedy the
disasters which had been sustained at Amida, and having
reinforced his army with new levies, he might check the
attempts of the king of Persia with equal vigour; as it
was clear that Sapor, if Providence and some more pressing
occupation did not prevent him, would leave Mesopotamia
and bring the war over the plains on this side of that
country.

XII.

I. BUT amid these causes of anxiety, as if in accordance
with old-established custom, instead of the signal for civil
war, the trumpet sounded groundless charges of treason,
and a secretary, whom we shall often have to speak of,
named Paulus, was sent to inquire into these charges. He
was a man skilful in all the contrivances of cruelty, making
gain and profit of tortures and executions, as a master of
gladiators does of his fatal games.

2. For as he was firm and resolute in his purpose of



208 AMMIANUS MAKCELL1NUS. [Bs. XIX. CH. ill

injuring people, he did not abstain even from theft, and
invented all kinds of causes for the destruction of innocent
men, while engaged in this miserable campaign.

3. A slight and trivial circumstance afforded infinite
material for extending his investigations. There is a town
called Abydum in the most remote corner of the Egyptian
Thebais, where an oracle of the god, known in that region
by the name of Besa, had formerly enjoyed some celebrity
for its prophecies, and had sacred rites performed at it
with all the ceremonies anciently in use in the neigh-
bouring districts.

4. Some used to go themselves to consult this oracle,
some to send by others documents containing their wishes,
and with prayers couched in explicit language inquired
the will of the deities ; and the paper or parchment on
which their wants were written, after the answer had been
given, was sometimes left in the temple.

5. Some of these were spitefully sent to the emperor,
and he, narrow minded as he was, though often deaf to
other matters of serious consequence, had, as the proverb
says, a soft place in his ear for this kind of information ; and
being of a suspicious and petty temper, became full of gall
and fury ; and immediately ordered Paulus to repair with
all speed to the East, giving him authority, as to a chief of
great eminence and experience, to try all the causes as he
pleased.

6. And Modestus also, at that time count of the East, a
man well suited for such a business, was joined with him
in this commission. For Hermogenes of Pontua, at that
time prefect of the prsetorium, was passed over as of too
gentle a disposition.

7. Paulus proceeded, as he was ordered, full of deadly
eagerness and rage ; inviting all kinds of calumnies, so
that numbers from every part of the empire were brought
before him, noble and low born alike ; some of whom were
condemned to imprisonment, others to instant death.

8. The city which was chosen to witness these fatal
scenes was Scythopolis in Palestine, which for two reasons
seemed the most suitable of all places ; first, because it
was little frequented and secondly, because it was half-
way between Antioch and Alexandria, from which city
many of those brought befogs this tribunal came.

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Note also that the author (who was pagan) does not condemn the Emperor (as I read, he was Constantius (293-306)) for persecuting pagans for their religion - the reason was politics: the author rather calls him narrow-minded (i.e. stupid) and describes him as obsessed of being betrayed.
By the way, I don't know if this is of great importance but Theodosius (379-395) was the guy who made Paganism illegal and tried to destroy it. And Constantius was both before him and before Julian the Apostate (355-363) (the pagan emperor who tried to restore paganism in the empire).

I don't understand you, seriously: some time ago you perfectly agreed with the romans killing christians for getting into religious meetings... And now you say that christians doing likewise to pagans is blatant? By the way, they didn't have "church" buildings to gather there, back then. They gathered where they could.

First off, Pliny made it clear that the secret meetings were regarded as "political" not "religious." The Romans did not give a shit about religion; they were concerned about sedition.

Were the meetings really regarded as political and not religious?
By the way, have you really read XCVII and XCVIII from here?
As about sedition and political reasons (which are the obvious things they were concerned of), they could have come in conflict with christianity/christians. One of them being, for instance, if the emperor wants to impose his authority over people and to be regarded as a god and people to bring sacrifices to him as to a god, then the christians' attitude would have been seen as some kind of rebellion (against Emperor's authority and against the unity of the Empire itself).

Of greater importance is that you miss the point...perhaps accidentally.

Sorry, I use to get off topic easily. And to focus on details and stuff.

I don't give a flying fuck what the emperor did 1500 years ago. He was the emperor and he could kill whoever the fuck he wanted. That's what being emperor means. BUT. When modern xtians trot out this holier-than-thou horseshit about how their marvelous religion spread peacefully across the world it is time to shake them out of their stupidity with FACTS. Xtianity was not spread by pious missionaries but by terror, murder and oppression.

I know, it was mostly this way. But also by political reasons (seeking some advantage) and stuff like that.

Do you understand that, at least, or am I wasting my time? You made an assertion that the populace was blindly following the bishops and priests and it is simply untrue in many instances.

I understand that. Yeah, indeed in many instances the populace was not simply "blindly following the bishops and priests", I was wrong with that assertion.

Some notes, they may clarify some things about me, if you were really curios:
1. I am quite skeptic, about what anybody says. Regarding religious topics, most people are biased - i.e. they fight to prove their views and to disprove all others, without paying too much attention to who's right & who's wrong in a certain issue (just like we see in politics when every political party presents itself as the savior and the other parties as useless or evil). That's my observation at least.
2. I am not fighting against any philosophy/religion, neither for. I'm simply not a 'combatant'.
3. Regarding those questions I asked you (i.e. "tell me that..."), sorry for that. I guess I was a bit upset or something. It's just an obsession of mine, you know, when I hear people that are blaming others of things, as if themselves yearn for the absolute good and absolute righteousness, as if they could not harm even an insect, but they are not actually feeling that way - they do it only for the public or for certain objectives. I don't want to blame anybody, as I said, it's just an obsession of mine.
4. I don't know about others, I don't care about others, but I myself want to be fair: if someone is wrong in a certain thing, I don't care who or what he's fighting for, or what good thing would be if he succeeded convincing people, if that thing is wrong, it's wrong. Likewise, if someone is right in a certain thing, I don't care who or what he's fighting for, if that thing is right, it's right.

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P.S. I might share my view on the trinity issue (the actual topic here) as I understand it from the bible, if anybody is interested. But perhaps by doing that, I might start a debate with the xtians on the forum on the subject. Anyway, anybody interested in my view regarding the trinity?

[Minimalist]

I keep this link handy for the Pliny-Trajan correspondence as it goes directly to the ones in question without having to wade through discussions about court houses in Asia Minor:

http://www9.georgetown.edu/faculty/jod/texts/pliny.html

Even this, they affirmed, they had ceased to do after my edict by which, in accordance with your instructions, I had forbidden political associations.

There is a difference in translations: Your version uses the term "assemblies" in lieu of "political associations." I would not put my rudimentary Latin against either of the translators even though I know I could find a Latin version of this text if I looked for it!

BTW, the church spreading by recruiting local leaders was actually a tactic learned from Rome itself. Much of the Roman Empire was held together with minimal military force. The provincial governors ( mainly senatorial appointees ) had what amount to police forces and in event of serious trouble had to call on the legions. Almost invariably when the Romans conquered a region there was a rebellion soon after which was crushed. The local leaders - weighing the idea of another rebellion - were given a subtle choice. Maintain your titles and property by becoming "Roman" or risk everything by having your belly ripped open with a sword and your house burned down around your ears. It was an effective means of persuasion.
Similarly, when the empire began to collapse the church concentrated on "converting" various barbarian leaders. The idea being that if the chief became xtian all of his followers would then become xtian also. If they chose not to, it was up to the newly "xtianized" chieftain to kill them for treason which kept the church itself one step removed from the carnage.