I Find It Offensive; How About You

[Epimethean]

LOL, whereas christians thrive on the new and snappy stuff!

[Statler Waldorf]

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What about Atheism is questioning the status quo? Nothing as far as I can see... it's taking the default position and throwing stones at different ideas. Of all the logical arguments presented it seems an atheists only response is to close their eyes like the logic really isn't there.

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Exactly, and they have trouble even demonstrating why atheism should be the default position.

[Epimethean]

Actually, they don't. They simply explain how your goofy gods no longer make sense, as they are an outdated ode to man's ignorance of the world. People can choose whatever they want, reason or religion. Obviously, you chose. Right?

[BethK]

(cut for brevity)

We believe in evolution (generally) and we definitely do not believe the Jewish Zombie who is his own father born to a virginal mother, who died, came back to life 3 days later, walking on water nonsense.

A freethinker who uses simple reason understands that this is not possible.

To put mildly, a freethinker is someone who is a thinking person. Anyone who genuinely believes desert goat herder nonsense, is not a thinking person.

Please don't resort to belittling my beliefs and calling Jesus a 'zombie'. Yes, but I could have changed my beliefs later in life, but I didn't. I believe in evolution too, and I don't believe all of what the Bible says to be true, only some of it. I made a choice not to believe in the ridiculous things in the Bible. Doesn't that make me a freethinker by that logic? I still hold true to my belief that Agnostics are the only freethinkers, though. In any case, I have to leave now, I look forward to talking about this later with you all.

Your beliefs seem strange. You believe the Bible, as far as what it says about religion, worship, and any number of things which violate the rules of how things work in this world - e.g., you believe in some of these miracles. Like, the one about Jesus being his own father, born of a virgin, really, truly, died and came back from the dead, who could walk through walls - but you believe in evolution (and disbelieve that God created it all one day), disbelieve the other "ridiculous" things in the Bible. How in the world do you choose? I suppose that you have not sold everything to give it to the poor (Luke 18:22, Matthew 19:21, Mark 10:21)? If you haven't done that, you could sell everything and give it to your "church", which will hold everything in common, and give it to each according to need? (Acts 2:44-45)? (Communist Manifesto, anyone?) Do you believe that God broke Peter out of prison (Acts 12:7-10)? Do you shun medical science in favor of faith healing? (Matthew 9:22, 9:35) In short, HOW do you decide what things to pick to believe, and how do you decide which ones not to believe?

Agnostic is not a state of faith, but is a state of knowledge. Gnosis is from Greek, meaning "knowledge". Gnostic is "one who has knowledge". Agnostic negates that, so an agnostic is "one without knowledge". No one has objective knowledge on whether or not God exists. One who is agnostic (about the existence of God) and does not have a belief in God is just plain an atheist. One who is agnostic (about the existence of God) but maintains a belief in God (any God), is just plain a theist, or a believer if you prefer.

[Faith No More]

What about Atheism is questioning the status quo? Nothing as far as I can see... it's taking the default position and throwing stones at different ideas. Of all the logical arguments presented it seems an atheists only response is to close their eyes like the logic really isn't there.

So would it be better to just choose a religion even if we find they're all false? You're assuming that the reason atheists are atheists is because we haven't put any thought in the matter. Does this come from the fact that you can't possibly imagine someone looking at your religion with an open mind and coming to the conclusion that it's all a bunch of nonsense?

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Exactly, and they have trouble even demonstrating why atheism should be the default position.

I'm an atheist because I have come to the conclusion that all religions are man made. I'm not sure where you guys are getting this 'default position' stuff from.

[Anymouse]

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What about Atheism is questioning the status quo? Nothing as far as I can see... it's taking the default position and throwing stones at different ideas. Of all the logical arguments presented it seems an atheists only response is to close their eyes like the logic really isn't there.

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Exactly, and they have trouble even demonstrating why atheism should be the default position.

Not so. Even a Wiccan can do that, and we are arguably not atheists (though I refuse to use the Theist signature picture here for obvious reasons).

The default position for a new infant is atheism; the baby has no beliefs at all about anything. It is inculcated in religion.

One might question why you feel that Christianity is the logical position over atheism and all other religions. If you'd been born in Israel, your parents would likely have raised you Jewish. In Syria, Islam. In Japan, Shinto. In Denmark or much of northern and western Europe outside Spain, atheist.

Atheists here have noted that the extraordinary claim by Christians is that there is a God (or maybe three) and the onus is on them to prove their position, for their is nothing to prove in non-belief.

They are wrong. Christians have two things to prove. The other one is why Christianity and it's God/s are the correct view and all other religions and their god/desses are not correct. More than "the Bible says to have no other gods before its god," because that statement on its face admits there are other gods. So, why is your god superior to my two, who do not have a holy book that makes no sense, flies in the face of everything anyone has learned about the natural world, and has never killed anyone in the name of its deities (to the best of my knowledge).

My wife is listening to clips from CBN right now, where they are quoting the Apostle Paul writing "Take these prophecies and make war with them."

A religion of such love. And who does your beloved Paul and Rev. Robertson think you should be making war on? Christians have used that statement to make war on everyone who gets in their way. This was after an article on CBN attesting to the claim that Interstate 35 is being heralded as some "holy highway" alluded to in Isaiah 35. I asked her to turn it off; I cannot stomach Robertson and his bully-boys that picketed my home in violation of the law.

One of my new neighbours literally choked me (with both hands) and knocked my wife off her cane, throwing her to the floor, for being heathens. (I was insulted, I am the heathen, she is an atheist.) She broke his choke hold by batting his arms with her cane. I guess he was making the war Paul speaks of, one Wiccan at a time.

James

[Udaho]

That Christians, and anyone who isn't an Atheist for that matter, is not a 'Free' Thinker. I may believe in Christianity, but that doesn't mean I'm not a free thinker! I made a choice to be a Christian which means I freely chose to be one. I was not forced to be one. Even as a Christian I can freely think. Can someone explain to me how the term 'Free' Thinker only applies to Atheists?

Well the Bible does all the thinking for you.

[MilesTailsPrower]

Anybody can be a free thinker if they don't let religion effect all of their philosophy. Simple? Unless you lost your individuality and let everyone else think for you, than you are NOT a freethinker

Also anymouse why did they picket your home?

[fr0d0]

Just like adolescents choose to be independent in their fashion choices yet mostly end up looking the same, so Atheists choose to be free thinkers yet end up thinking the same as the majority.

So would it be better to just choose a religion even if we find they're all false? You're assuming that the reason atheists are atheists is because we haven't put any thought in the matter. Does this come from the fact that you can't possibly imagine someone looking at your religion with an open mind and coming to the conclusion that it's all a bunch of nonsense?

That's what the inference of a default position is... lack of thought. Unless you're saying that newborn babies have a thoughtful opposition? Then when you're capable of thought... it takes no thought to not believe something. You could then not think for yourself and believe what you're told or what everyone around you thinks... but still we're not at the point of free thinking. So the probability of an atheist being a free thinker is stacked against them already.

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The default position for a new infant is atheism; the baby has no beliefs at all about anything. It is inculcated in religion.

a-theism = a position on belief. It requires knowledge of belief to be opposed to. If there were no theism there could be no atheism.

One might question why you feel that Christianity is the logical position over atheism and all other religions. If you'd been born in Israel, your parents would likely have raised you Jewish. In Syria, Islam. In Japan, Shinto. In Denmark or much of northern and western Europe outside Spain, atheist.

Believing what everyone else thinks just because that's what everyone else thinks is unthinking.

Atheists here have noted that the extraordinary claim by Christians is that there is a God (or maybe three) and the onus is on them to prove their position, for their is nothing to prove in non-belief.

Atheists should know what they're opposing if they want to show any credibility. There is nothing to prove in disbelief unless you start stating that belief is illogical.

They are wrong. Christians have two things to prove. The other one is why Christianity and it's God/s are the correct view and all other religions and their god/desses are not correct. More than "the Bible says to have no other gods before its god," because that statement on its face admits there are other gods. So, why is your god superior to my two, who do not have a holy book that makes no sense, flies in the face of everything anyone has learned about the natural world, and has never killed anyone in the name of its deities (to the best of my knowledge).

The bible clearly acknowledges other gods, it does make sense... so immediately you go beyond disbelief and misrepresent a belief, and you also shoulder the burden of proof to demonstrate your claims.

All religious endeavor points to the same truths. I don't get hung up on exclusivity, only in sifting out the crap.

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My wife is listening to clips from CBN right now, where they are quoting the Apostle Paul writing "Take these prophecies and make war with them."

A religion of such love. And who does your beloved Paul and Rev. Robertson think you should be making war on? Christians have used that statement to make war on everyone who gets in their way. This was after an article on CBN attesting to the claim that Interstate 35 is being heralded as some "holy highway" alluded to in Isaiah 35. I asked her to turn it off; I cannot stomach Robertson and his bully-boys that picketed my home in violation of the law.

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Spurious interpretation again, failing to actually address Christianity. You're doing the same as Jesus.. pointing that out.

One of my new neighbours literally choked me (with both hands) and knocked my wife off her cane, throwing her to the floor, for being heathens. (I was insulted, I am the heathen, she is an atheist.) She broke his choke hold by batting his arms with her cane. I guess he was making the war Paul speaks of, one Wiccan at a time.

James

Shocking.

Of course you're not attacking Christianity, but the gross misrepresentation of Christianity, just like I would.

[Anymouse]

Anybody can be a free thinker if they don't let religion effect all of their philosophy. Simple? Unless you lost your individuality and let everyone else think for you, than you are NOT a freethinker

Also anymouse why did they picket your home?

This was in 1984. I was running a Wiccan bulletin board service on my Commodore 64. (Yes. I am that old.) It became the largest BBS in Virginia Beach (in terms of users). That got it attention from the local paper, the Virginian Pilot and Ledger-Star. Then the wackos at CBN started their pickets at my apartment. Including such loving placards as "Burn the Witch."

My wife and I had to take refuge on the Naval Air Station because the police would not clear the pickets (Virginia Beach is the home of Pat Robertson and CBN, they support him far more than a military Wiccan from Michigan), and the threats became personal, and the picketers would physically block us from entering or leaving our apartment.

Gradually, as things did with BBS's back then, mine dropped in popularity when new and different BBS's came along. (One called Tom's Place, a FidoNet porn board, did especially well against mine.)

I eventually pulled down my BBS when I was transferred to Spain. I briefly set it up there, but when I found that Wicca was unlawful in Spain, I pulled it down again, primarily because the Status of Forces Agreement between the USA and Spain would not have protected me as I lived in town, not on the base in Rota.