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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:17 pm
It's definitely proof of a higher being, namely, ourselves.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:17 pm
(July 7, 2011 at 12:09 pm)Rhythm Wrote: I have a preexisting contract with said entity, as such, any change in policy for new subscribers does not apply to me. Grandfathering and all.
Can I haz moar rep plz?!
sorry, Im not too familiar with how all this works. You were reffering to me? rep bump? I feel so clueless!
If I die and god is real, im so screwed.
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:20 pm
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2011 at 12:27 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
LOL, no no no, just screwing around, getting some laughs.
How do you end up in these debates btw, who are the people that feel the need to "open their mouths and remove all doubt" as it were? Another question, what exactly are you expecting from your pastor? I'm not so sure I'd be taking advice from anyone who saw/heard that argument and just ran with it.
It's amusing though that you brought that argument up btw, a couple of days ago we all had the distinct honor of watching that very same dream die in the heart of one of our resident theists. Maybe they have a mailing list.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:29 pm
Even as a deist, when I heard the Transcendental Argument for God (or TAG), I thought it was such crap that it must be a parody (ala Landover Baptist style). It's frankly embarrassing for the human race that people can present such arguments with a straight face and think they're spouting philosophy gold.
The argument is stated is if God were the source of either morality or logic. It relies on "GodWillsIt" to explain what is moral and "GodDidIt" to explain the "laws of logic". Then it goes downhill from there.
One (of many) problems with the line of thinking in the TAG argument is a logical fallacy called "Begging the Question". Here's how this fallacy works:
Step 1: Assume X to be true without any basis
Step 2: Use the assumption of X as "proof" that Y must be true.
Applied to the TAG-morality argument:
1. Without God, there can be no objective standard of morality (assumption)
2. Objective morality exists (assumption)
3. Therefore, God exists. (Fallacious reasoning using a double act of begging the question)
On point #1: How do you figure that? An evil god could exist. And if God does exist and creates a basis for moral judgment, on what basis do we say God's morals are objectively correct? If God creates rules that establish morality, this is not objective by definition. If God determines what is moral through wisdom and judgment, than morality exists outside of God and therefore would continue to exist without God. Either way, the argument fails.*
On point #2: What do you mean by "objective morality"? Does this mean that morality can be measured in quantifiable units like mass, kinetic energy or velocity?
Quote:The Christian theistic worldview can account for the laws of logic by stating that they come from God.
1. God is transcendent; that is, He is beyond the material universe being its creator.
2. God has originated the laws of logic because they are a reflection of His nature.
3. Therefore, the laws of logic are absolute.
4. They are absolute because there is an absolute God.
1. Assumption.
2. Assumption. Also using "GodDidIt" to explain reality.
3. Assumption that can be maintained without 1 or 2. Non Sequitur.
4. Conclusion based on fallacious reasoning.
Quote:The atheistic worldview cannot account for the laws of logic/absolutes, and must borrow from the Christian worldview in order to rationally argue.
(earlier)
The Christian worldview maintains that the laws of logic are absolute because they come from God, who is Himself absolute.
Again, GodDidIt. GodDidIt does nothing to elucidate our understanding of reality any more than GodWillsIt helps us understand what morality is.
There's also some burden of proof shifting here. "The atheistic worldview" doesn't need to "account" for anything. It's the lack of a belief. "I don't know" is a perfectly acceptable answer if one doesn't know the answer. And just because the atheist may not know the answer to a question doesn't mean the Christian can simply appeal to ignorance and fill in the gaps with his/her god until proven otherwise. The burden of proof is on them, not us.
And just because God exists doesn't mean it's necessarily the Christian god (as deism will attest).
*Footnote: Christians, aware of this dilemma, are usually prepared to respond with the gibberish that God neither determines nor discovers morality but rather the very essence of morality is part of God's nature. Beyond the fact that this argument makes no sense, it's another example of begging the question. The Christians invent a definition (goodness is ingrained in God) to justify an assertion (God is good) and then run in an endless circle (We know that God is good because goodness is ingrained in God which we know because God is good and we know this because goodness is ingrained in God which we know because...).
Bottom line: Don't be intimidated by Christian pseudo-philosophy or be afraid to call it the gibberish that it is.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:33 pm
:throws his name in for consideration as an evil god:
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:37 pm
(July 7, 2011 at 12:20 pm)Rhythm Wrote: It's amusing though that you brought that argument up btw, a couple of days ago we all had the distinct honor of watching that very same dream die in the heart of one of our resident theists. Maybe they have a mailing list.
Where was this and how did I miss it?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Wow all you guys are great. good intelligent answers. I can feel the stupid being washed away. and to answer your earlier question its mostly the adults in my church, who truly think im "lost". its kinda sad really cuz i can tell they think im in some sort of otherwordly trouble. every debate ends with "well you dont know how time you have. i hope you see the light before its over." jesus, im sixteen!!! i dont wanna think about death yet! im still obssessed with boobies. but yeah my pastor is someone who says atheism is dumb because it cant account for the universe and we have no moral basis. he linked me to that site and told me to read all of it.
If I die and god is real, im so screwed.
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:46 pm
You have to realize that these people have spent their whole lives coming up with arguments that at face value seem to be factual and intellectual. These arguments are not meant for people like you who will go outside their circle to find the answers, but are more meant for people who will just agree with it because it sounds smart. Christian apologists rely on sounding smart and having unquestioning followers.
Oh, and the obsession with boobies never goes away.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:49 pm
(This post was last modified: July 7, 2011 at 12:52 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Wow, threatening a minor with death (by proxy) for failure to conform. I don't think your pastor thinks you're dumb however. I believe he knows you to be a highly impressionable teenager, and is attempting to leverage his image as an authority figure to coerce you into submission. That he provided you with that link is only ancillary. If you had approached him with your questions, his response been "You're wrong" and you accepted it....would he have provided the link? I think not.
:Nothing makes me more uneasy than the thought of figures of religious authority being allowed, and even encouraged to shape the minds of their youthful subjects/victims:
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christian worldview explains logic?
July 7, 2011 at 12:51 pm
(July 7, 2011 at 12:15 pm)FaithNoMore Wrote: (July 7, 2011 at 12:09 pm)Minimalist Wrote: First they need to demonstrate by evidence that their silly-ass concept of god exists. Failing that, they are nothing but a bunch of fanatics pissing into the wind.
I think their point about the laws of logic is that is proof of god. Somehow the human ability to label the nature of the universe is 'proof' of a higher being.
I know what they do. Our job is to not let them get away with it!
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