Ten Lies About Islam

[Violet]

Actually, it was more boring than maddening.

I died of boredom on the homepage. Luckily I am the ressurection goddess, or you would have just killed a demigod (@Atheist Jew).

Captain Hook: "What would the world be like without Captain Hook?"

[Rayaan]

Specifically Myth 2 part 5, Myth 7 parts 1 through 5, Myth 8 parts 2, 3, and 6, and Myth 9 parts 1 through 5.

I took a look at those sections, but there are too many verses mentioned there, and many different parts. That's why it will be more helpful if you quote a specific verse and tell me what's wrong with it.

[fr0d0]

One example:
How come Allah is unknowable yet Muslims know his will exactly from the Quran... his exact word? Surely if you know his will that exactly you know his nature from that?

Similar to Christianity, we are only familiar with the attributes of Allah which are mentioned in the Quran, and it is not necessary to know him FULLY to know Allah's will.

What is stated there is what I understand of Islam... that Allah is unknowable. That God could never become a man; that we could never have a personal relationship with God. Yet these are integral to Christian faith.

in Islam, it is considered blasphemous to "presume" that one can know Allah intimately or claim any sort of close, personal fellowship with him. This theological view developed early in Islam, and became an important feature of Islamic theology, being espoused by Muslim thinkers such as al-Ghazali. Shehadi summarizes the teachings of this Sufi theologian on this point,

"The end result of the knowledge of the `arifin [ed. note - a term denoting "the knowers"] is their inability to know Him, and their knowledge is, in truth, that they do not know Him and that it is absolutely impossible for them to know Him."
F. Shehadi, Ghazali's Unique Unknowable God, p. 37

This view is also understood among modern Islamic scholarship, where the statement of al-Faruqi is representative,

"He [God] does not reveal Himself to anyone in any way. God reveals only His will. Remember one of the prophets asked God to reveal Himself and God told him, 'No, it is not possible for Me to reveal Myself to anyone'....This is God's will and that is all we have, and we have it in perfection in the Qur'an. But Islam does not equate the Qur'an with the nature or essence of God. It is the Word of God, the Commandment of God, the Will of God. But God does not reveal Himself to anyone. Christians talk about the revelation of God Himself - by God of God - but that is the great difference between Christianity and Islam. God is transcendent, and once you talk about self-revelation you have hierophancy and immanence, and then the transcendence of God is compromised. You may not have complete transcendence and self-revelation at the same time."
I. al-Faruqi, Christian Mission and Islamic Da`wah: Proceedings of the Chambèsy Dialogue Consultation, pp. 47-48

The similarities aren't lost on me. AFAIK Islam is a direct derivitive of Christianity. What I understand Islam to be is a misunderstanding of the Judaic God with additional material compounding that.

Yes, Christians believe that God isn't completely knowable.


PS name changes kinda breaks the forum dont they?

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@ Rhythm:
The guy is being quite thorough it would seem. He states his bias in the preface. Nothing wrong there. The historical debunks are amusing. He's doing a Min (another book comparer). And I've just watched a Muslim on UK TV giving firm historical backing for Muhammed. Depends who you want to believe I guess. Someone just said it was fact on TV though, so it must be true.

[Rayaan]

What is stated there is what I understand of Islam... that Allah is unknowable.

Yes, Allah is mostly unknowable, because He is transcendent. But regardless, we can still believe in Him and have a personal relationship with Him.

That God could never become a man; that we could never have a personal relationship with God.

Well, God doesn't need to become a man for us to have a personal relationship with him. We believe that He exists. That's all. Unlike Christians, we don't believe that God become a man.

So the Islamic view of God is simpler.

The similarities aren't lost on me. AFAIK Islam is a direct derivitive of Christianity.

No problem, that's your opinion, but I don't think that similarities necessarily entail that Islam derived directly from Christianity. Islam also shares many similarities with Judaism. They may have all come from the same God even.

What I understand Islam to be is a misunderstanding of the Judaic God with additional material compounding that.

Of course, Islam and Judasim do not have the same identical view of God as they are two different religions - and it doesn't have to be identical - because God himself can reveal additional information about Himself.

Yes, Christians believe that God isn't completely knowable.

Agreed.

PS name changes kinda breaks the forum dont they?

Sort of, yes, but it's not a big deal. This is my first time and I'm not going to change it anymore. It's going to be fine in a week or two. And almost everyone can figure out who I am in 2 seconds.

[fr0d0]

What you've said there Rayaan/ Spider/ whoever you are conflicts with the Islamic scholars quoted in the piece. God IS unknowable and ISN'T possible to know personally. Are you sure you're disagreeing?


(juss kidding )

[Napoléon]

Oh boy, I ain't getting into one of these ones again, last time I voted in one of these ones I ended up with a neutral rep point and PM calling me a coward. I abstain from the vote

[The Grand Nudger]

::makes a comment about watching special olympians battling for the gold, and the pointlessness of it all as he walks away, head lowered in shame::

[Rayaan]

God IS unknowable and ISN'T possible to know personally. Are you sure you're disagreeing?

I'm not disagreeing (as you already know since you said "just kidding").

To illustrate this idea with a real-life example, imagine that there is something or someone behind a closed door, and the person or thing is sending you messages from behind the door. You're getting numbers and sentences and you're writing them down. However, do you really need to know what exactly the person or object looks like to understand the messages that you're getting? The answer is no. It could even be a computer talking to you behind the door.

Having said that, know that Allah has 99 names which are describing His attributes, although we still cannot comprehend Him because we cannot understand those attributes (fully) in human terms.

[fr0d0]

No, I was kidding that I had a trap laid out for you if you said no.

You ARE disagreeing with the exact words used by the scholars quoted because they say that Allah is unknowable. That only his words are known. Now I can accept that you hold that their ideas are incorrect. I don't know who these people are, but I wouldn't be too shocked to find out that that they got it wrong this once.

How about knowing him personally? I guess you stand by that one?

[Rayaan]

Why are you trapping the spider?

Actually, I do agree with the scholars because Allah IS unknowable, in a metaphysical sense. I don't know him personally either. I only know what He has revealed about Himself in the Quran (but his fundamental nature is unknowable). This doesn't undermine my belief in His existence, though.

To ask the same question to you fr0d0, do you personally know Jesus, or did you ever see him in a dream? If not, then how do you personally know Jesus and how can you have a relationship with him? You don't have to answer this, because I think I already know the answer, but I'm saying this only to show you that I can apply the same questions that you're asking me. It's not really that different, IMO.