A question about original sin.

[fr0d0]

What are you using "the obvious" as shorthand for in this instance Frodo?

Religious endeavour

[The Grand Nudger]

Where am I ignoring the religious endeavor Frodo? I've spent considerable amounts of time learning about the religious endeavor. I just decided it might be prudent to consult more than one book on the subject.

Look, if you started a thread, called "The Truth in the Metaphors of Christianity" I would probably end up being one of the most positive contributors. A good story, with good moral lessons (in places) is one thing, trying to assert that these stories themselves somehow speak to the truth of the christian god, with no supporting evidence, and in the face of all the evidence we have, that's ridiculous, and intellectually insulting. I'm not interested in building walls between my opinions and reality. Without constructing these walls (read: special pleading) it is impossible to even begin to have a discussion about your concept of god. You know this. I'm just pointing out that it's bullshit, as always.

Let me be clear. I am very much in awe of the various ways in which we have tried to explain our existence. There is nothing in those myths that present a defensible model of the world around us. They were understandably incorrect.

[Cinjin]

I believe it to be very true. I find it very important as to be considered more. I find that what Jesus said is different than what anyone has ever said. I have found patterns in Confucius, Shakespeare, Ben. Franklin, Buddha, i found that there teachings or ideas are that of just intellectual men and i have often come up with their very concepts on my own. I find the religion to be set on a promise and thus a hope. I am also to share this belief i have with others because it is good, "I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves." Mat10:16 I also find that Bible prophesy is very interesting and should be taken mention, with also the prophesy that has come true already. I think the good it teaches is excellent influence of how i should lead my life. I find it to be the most true and peculiar of all the other religions. I truly believe faith is given to us by God and we just have to accept it .

---

Now if i may, why must it be proven it is a belief?

If your "truth" is nothing more than a belief, then you really have no standing to claim that it is "the one truth". You don't know that - you have no way to know that. Belief is not equal to knowledge.

Believe whatever you want, I don't care. When you step over the line and profess your belief is THE ONE TRUTH, be prepared to get called on your bullshit and defend it - or STFU and GTFO. To do otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

What if say i believe it to be the one truth with the assurance of an old book, and i share this belief with you. The thing you want is to see God and then to be like ok now i get it but i find that very fake and selfish. We are arguing over belief and what you tell me of what you believe is just well informed speculation about grand coincidence that i find not true because it is not truth. My belief credits it as the one truth your just angry cause your on the outside. There all claims and as mush as know one wants to admit what we believe has to be the one truth or why believe, the thing is, it is the belief that is important not the claim we all claim to or are to scared to proclaim to for the one truth is irrelevant because we do not know it.

for christs sake ... Grammar 101!!

You still seemed to have missed the point there ROD. Everyone does expect you to believe that your silly religion is the only way to go ... most people do. It's the arrogance of telling everyone else on earth that you know it's the only acceptable religion which makes you and the brothers-in-christ so damn annoying. You haven't met Jesus, you don't personally know God. Your "direct line" to him is one way, and every devout dipshit on this planet of any religion has a really old book or manuscript to follow. You're not special. Your religion is not unique. You don't hold the moral high ground, and your god is every bit as blood thirsty as allah or any other "savage" religion. Worship what you want, but don't try to bull shit us about how Christianity has an ounce more legitimacy than any other stupid belief system.

[The Grand Nudger]

Nicer than I would have put it. Good thing you're here.

[fr0d0]

Where am I ignoring the religious endeavor Frodo? I've spent considerable amounts of time learning about the religious endeavor. I just decided it might be prudent to consult more than one book on the subject.

I'm all for consulting more than one book.

trying to assert that these stories themselves somehow speak to the truth of the christian god, with no supporting evidence, and in the face of all the evidence we have, that's ridiculous

I agree, if we're off the subject of belief and onto scientific fact.

I'm not interested in building walls between my opinions and reality.

Me neither

Let me be clear. I am very much in awe of the various ways in which we have tried to explain our existence. There is nothing in those myths that present a defensible model of the world around us. They were understandably incorrect.

Agreed

[Jackalope]

Now if i may, why must it be proven it is a belief?

If your "truth" is nothing more than a belief, then you really have no standing to claim that it is "the one truth". You don't know that - you have no way to know that. Belief is not equal to knowledge.

Believe whatever you want, I don't care. When you step over the line and profess your belief is THE ONE TRUTH, be prepared to get called on your bullshit and defend it - or STFU and GTFO. To do otherwise is intellectually dishonest.

What if say i believe it to be the one truth with the assurance of an old book, and i share this belief with you. The thing you want is to see God and then to be like ok now i get it but i find that very fake and selfish. We are arguing over belief and what you tell me of what you believe is just well informed speculation about grand coincidence that i find not true because it is not truth. My belief credits it as the one truth your just angry cause your on the outside. There all claims and as mush as know one wants to admit what we believe has to be the one truth or why believe, the thing is, it is the belief that is important not the claim we all claim to or are to scared to proclaim to for the one truth is irrelevant because we do not know it.

That's frighteningly close to word salad, C Rod. If English isn't your first language, forgive me. If it is, you might consider either a refresher course or a professional psychological assessment.

If I'm understanding your meaning, your belief is the one truth because it's what you believe. You find something not true because it's not truth. That's insanely circular logic - not to mention a steaming load of bullshit. Seriously, if that's your argument, you're in WAY over your head. You've become invested in an a priori "truth" and then treat that "truth" as an axiom to prove that your "truth" is the "truth". What you're displaying here is a serious lack of rational thought with a bit of delusion added for good measure.

My belief system (of which you know nothing) has nothing to do with "well informed speculation about grand coincidence".

P.S. I'm not angry, and if I was it certainly wouldn't be because "[I'm] on the outside". I'm quite comfortable where I'm at. I used to be a xtian, probably before you were born - and then I discovered that faith didn't stand up to any kind of rational scrutiny.

P.P.S. Enjoy your fairy tales.

P.P.P.S. I'll wait while you go look up the really big words.

[C Rod]

for christs sake ... Grammar 101!!

You still seemed to have missed the point there ROD. Everyone does expect you to believe that your silly religion is the only way to go ... most people do. It's the arrogance of telling everyone else on earth that you know it's the only acceptable religion which makes you and the brothers-in-christ so damn annoying. You haven't met Jesus, you don't personally know God. Your "direct line" to him is one way, and every devout dipshit on this planet of any religion has a really old book or manuscript to follow. You're not special. Your religion is not unique. You don't hold the moral high ground, and your god is every bit as blood thirsty as allah or any other "savage" religion. Worship what you want, but don't try to bull shit us about how Christianity has an ounce more legitimacy than any other stupid belief system.

I was asked and i answered. Everything else you said, i already said. My view is but a belief and i shared it with you.

[The Grand Nudger]

I was asked and i answered. Everything else you said, i already said. My view is but a belief and i shared it with you.

Thank you. You're right, beliefs do not need to be proven. To say that you believe is enough. I believe that you believe It is only when beliefs are claimed to be true, that they need to be proven. You are apparently not claiming that your beliefs are true.

[Judas BentHer]

It would all be fine if we weren't insisting in commitint the same sin over and over again...

And yet according to John the apostle, or whatever that scribes name was, there is no more sin in the world original or otherwise. Unless Jesus died a miserable failure.

John 1:29 (King James Version)

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

[C Rod]

What if say i believe it to be the one truth with the assurance of an old book, and i share this belief with you. The thing you want is to see God and then to be like ok now i get it but i find that very fake and selfish. We are arguing over belief and what you tell me of what you believe is just well informed speculation about grand coincidence that i find not true because it is not truth. My belief credits it as the one truth your just angry cause your on the outside. There all claims and as mush as know one wants to admit what we believe has to be the one truth or why believe, the thing is, it is the belief that is important not the claim we all claim to or are to scared to proclaim to for the one truth is irrelevant because we do not know it.

That's frighteningly close to word salad, C Rod. If English isn't your first language, forgive me. If it is, you might consider either a refresher course or a professional psychological assessment.

If I'm understanding your meaning, your belief is the one truth because it's what you believe. You find something not true because it's not truth. That's insanely circular logic - not to mention a steaming load of bullshit. Seriously, if that's your argument, you're in WAY over your head. You've become invested in an a priori "truth" and then treat that "truth" as an axiom to prove that your "truth" is the "truth". What you're displaying here is a serious lack of rational thought with a bit of delusion added for good measure.

My belief system (of which you know nothing) has nothing to do with "well informed speculation about grand coincidence".

P.S. I'm not angry, and if I was it certainly wouldn't be because "[I'm] on the outside". I'm quite comfortable where I'm at. I used to be a xtian, probably before you were born - and then I discovered that faith didn't stand up to any kind of rational scrutiny.

P.P.S. Enjoy your fairy tales.

P.P.P.S. I'll wait while you go look up the really big words.

[/quote]

Hopefully you can understand this because it seems you couldn't understand my previous post because of word salad. What is my belief, if i do not believe it to be true? It is the one truth to me because there is one truth that explains it all. We do not know this incontrovertible truth so the "one truth" is in play for all because of belief, for things such as religion, this is our "one truth" that explains everything. How can i accept the Hindu religion that observes many gods, when my belief rests on there being only one God. Your belief if you wish to share must be the one truth you look to or you believe in multiple things, in which every possible thing is connected and thus all is the "one truth". Once the one truth is known than no belief to the contrary can be accepted so i ask do you know of the one truth or are there claims, kinda like mine.hock:

I think its pathetic to grasp at what can be contradicted and fallible instead of trying to understand if the semantics are just the problem. Can you tell me what belief is? More importantly can you in inform me of what is true? You are not seeking understanding or answers but just showing your knowledge of logic and quickness to obscure anything different. I do want to know what you believe or better yet know, and do you believe it to be true.

P.S. Just in case you were wondering, if there was an incontrovertible truth do you believe we would know it as such. Would i not change my belief if it was proven wrong, of course without a doubt. Or is doubt all we have and the acceptance of our reasons.

P.P.S. Understanding is fun, do you think so?

---

I was asked and i answered. Everything else you said, i already said. My view is but a belief and i shared it with you.

Thank you. You're right, beliefs do not need to be proven. To say that you believe is enough. I believe that you believe It is only when beliefs are claimed to be true, that they need to be proven. You are apparently not claiming that your beliefs are true.

The book is my proof and i believe that my belief is true. I shared it with you like i would share my name but what you do not know, you do not know. All i can do is inform you of what i know as proof and discern as belief but what you do with this is your choice, not mine.