God Yahweh Allah was a volcano.

[Hannah]

Don't worry. We don't want personal information. We just want to get an idea of who we are talking to, not where she lives or anything like that.

So, you don't think that investigating "objections" would be beneficial to your idea?

I just handled an objection from Minimalist. Some objections are just plain objectionable and not worth responding to. Others are genuine queries. It would be great if there were more of the latter and less of the former....and maybe more time for research. I think this is a largely untapped subject so there is a lot of investigating to do, which is very time consuming. It should be very clear now that I am not going to change my approach just because a lot of people think the Bible is entirely ficticious. I clearly do not share that opinion and I have my reasons for that...some of which will become apparent as this thread progresses.

[Shell B]

some of which will become apparent as this thread progresses.

I don't want to be a buzzkill, but kind of the reason I asked if you would want to chat with us on other topics is because I doubt this can go on this way much longer. If this thread is going to be entirely about what you think you know and you aren't going to listen to anyone else, they are going to get bored. As other people have expressed, it is a little surprising that has not happened yet.

[Minimalist]

I just handled an objection from Minimalist.

Well, THAT's news!!!

[theVOID]

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QUOTE
Archaeological excavations have revealed that the city (SODOM) lay close to the Dead Sea on the present-day Israeli-Jordanian border. According to scientists, the area is covered in large deposits of sulphur. For this reason, no life in the form of animals or plants is to be found there and the region stands as a symbol of destruction.
Sulphur is an element which appears as a result of volcanic eruptions. Indeed, there is clear evidence in the Qur'an that the method of destruction was earthquake and volcanic eruptions. The German archaeologist Werner Keller says this about the region:

Together with the base of this mighty fissure, which runs precisely through this area, the Vale of Siddim, including Sodom and Gomorrah, plunged one day into the abyss. Their destruction came about through a great earthquake which was probably accompanied by explosions, lightning, issue of natural gas and general conflagration… The subsidence released volcanic forces that had been lying dormant deep down along the whole length of the fracture. In the upper valley of the Jordan near Bashan there are still towering craters of extinct volcanoes; great stretches of lava and deep layers of basalt have been deposited on the limestone surface.229

These layers of lava and basalt are the most important evidence showing that a volcanic eruption and earthquake once took place there. In any event Lake Lut, otherwise known as the Dead Sea, lies directly above a seismically active region-in other words, an earthquake belt:

The base of the dead sea is located with a tectonic rooted downfall. This valley is located in a tension stretching between the Taberiye Lake in the north, and mid of Arabah Valley in the south.230

The technical aspect of the disaster suffered by the people of Lut has been revealed in studies carried out by geologists. These have shown that the earthquake which wiped out the people of Lut came about as the result of a very long fault line. The Jordan River drops a total of 180 metres during its 190 km course. This, and the fact that the Dead Sea is 400 metres below sea level, combined to prove that that there once took place a major geological event in and around this area.

This interesting structure of the Jordan River and the Dead Sea comprise only part of the crack or fissure which passes through this region. It begins at the slopes of the Toros Mountains and runs southward past the southern shores of the Dead Sea, through the Arabian Desert, reaching the Gulf of Aqaba, from where it crosses the Red Sea before coming to an end in Africa. There is major volcanic activity in those areas through which the line passes. In fact, this occurs to such an extent that black basalt and lava can be found in the Mountains of Galilee in Israel, in part of the high plateaus in Jordan, the Gulf of Aqaba and other areas.

All these remains and geographical features show that there was a major geological event at the Dead Sea.

The December 1957 edition of National Geographic magazine contained these statements on the subject:

The mount of Sodom, a barren wasteland, rises sharply above the dead sea. No one has ever found the destroyed cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, but scholars believe that they stood in the Vale of Siddim across from these cliffs. Possibly flood waters of the Dead Sea engulfed them following an earthquake.231

One of the pieces of information regarding this destroyed city is-as revealed in Surat al-Hijr 76-that these cities are still on the main line. Geographers have identified this region as being on a line to the south-east of the Dead Sea, extending from the Arabian peninsula to Syria and Egypt.

We turned the place completely upside down and rained down on them stones of hard-baked clay. There are certainly Signs in that for the discerning. They were beside a road which still exists. There is certainly a Sign in that for the believers. (Qur'an, 15:74-77)

QUOTE END

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/historical_08.html

Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. —Jude 1:7

"Likewise as it was in the days of Lot—they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built, but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom fire and sulphur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—so will it be on the day when the Son of man is revealed." Luke 17-28

if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 2Peter 2:6

Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah--from the LORD out of the heavens. Genesis 19:24

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Genesis 19:25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in the cities--and also the vegetation in the land.

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It would be far more reasonable to assume this narrative influenced the people's superstitions not by making them believe their god was a volcano, rather they attributed volcanic activity, earthquakes and many other things to the wrath of a God. None of this is supportive of the Idea that YHWH was a volcano.

Then again, nobody has actually found these cities, are there any extra-biblical sources for their existence? It is entirely likely that while some people may have found an area of volcanic activity where an earthquake once happened saying that two cities from a religious text once existed here and since we can't find them they must have fell down an abyss is bit ridiculous. Just how well are their locations described in the bible?

I am recent Christian apostate who left Christianity due to a sinking feeling about a volcano.

And now you're looking for evidence to demonstrate a "sinking feeling"? Nothing necessarily wrong with that, just be aware of the biases you can fall prey to with this approach, especially when your feeling lead you to make a substantial world change.

I have a hunch the entire God-feeling can be put down to volcanoes and, being a free thinking truth seeker, I want to see if the evidence points to this.

You could falsify this rather easily if you're interested, for instance if you find a culture with a God who is clearly not a volcano or multiple gods who are clearly representative of something else. I can name about a dozen from the Maori culture; Ranginui was the "sky father", Tāne-mahuta was the "god of the forests and birds", Tangaroa was the "god of the sea", Rongo the "God of peace and agriculture", Haumia-tiketike the "God of wild foods", Rehua the Star and guidance, Punga the "god of ugly creatures" Etc...

Compared to the very few which could be in any way attributed to a volcano; Papatūānuku the "Earth mother", Ruaumoko the "source of earthquakes" and Tāwhirimātea the "god of weather"

This soundly disproves the notion that the "entire God-feeling" can be put down to volcanoes. With evidence now presented in strict contradiction to this notion will you now, being a truth seeker, drop that proposition?

[Minimalist]

I have a hunch the entire God-feeling can be put down to volcanoes and, being a free thinking truth seeker, I want to see if the evidence points to this.

We have examples of volcano gods ( goddesses) like Pele in Hawaii. There also seems to be a volcano-god tradition in Korea and Indonesia. However, Japan has 100 volcanoes and no tradition of ascribing them to the gods so the connection is not a constant.

The Greeks were exposed to Stromboli ( which has been erupting more or less continually for 20,000 years ) and Etna on Sicily which is almost as active and near Greek colonies on Sicily or Magna Graecia in Southern Italy. But the Greeks and their Roman copyists merely decided that volcanoes were the "workshops" of Hephaestus/Vulcan and not 'gods' in their own right.

That Yah began as a Midianite volcano god is certainly possible because unlike Egypt or Canaan we know there was at least one volcano in an area which could be described as Midian. WE also have an actual Egyptian inscription from the Temple of Karnak.

An Egyptian inscription at Karnak from the time of Pharaoh Amenhotep III (1390-1352 B.C.E.) refers to the "Shasu of Yhw," evidence that this god was worshiped among some of the Shasu tribes at this time

That Yah existed on the southern borders of Canaan and was subsequently either adopted or moved with his people northward is plausible. However, your problem is the insistence on treating bible fairy tales as if they are real.
Yah(weh) made it into the Canaanite pantheon but it was a long time before he was promoted to a single, male, creator god.

[Hannah]

THE VOID:

Yahweh in the Bible is (chronologically early on) described as the god that brought Israel out of Egypt. Other than physical appearance (which is volcanic) he is described this way. My belief is that the Hebrews were in Egypt during the Santorini eruption and that they heard via refugees descriptions of the volcano. As it produced chaos allowing them to make a dash for freedom (or just a new life away from the chaos) with their Egyptian employers' gold, they attributed this natural occurance to a new god specifically for them and any future times they witnessed the same they again believed it to be the presence of their god. It is very clear in Exodus that the Hebrews needed to leave Egypt to worship their god. It wasn't possible to worship him in Egypt, therefore he had a defined location or locations. It is also very clear in Exodus that they believed god resided in the rim of the volcano at Mt Sinai. Lava rivers were his extended arms, flaming gas leaks were his angels, etc. The volcano was his home. Moses also, according to Exodus, met him at the top of Mt Sinai. In other words, he was tangible. This trait is lost later in the bible, when the massive devastations came to an end I assume. Then he became oomnipresent and in the heads of believers. Before, he was not in the heads of believers but in their view. They could see his abode and witness his wrath, etc, but he was not in their minds. It is, in my opinion, the fact his image was lost that made him omnipresent and eventually widely accepted as 'the god' of the world.

'God-feeling is down to a volcano'......with respect to yahweh. He started off as one thing and merged into something else but it was the innitial characteristics that set the firm foundations of the religion. It was mostly fear based (although there was forced gratitude for him helping them escape Egypt) and whatever happened in the area at the time must have been so profound it even frightened the Egyptians into believing in yahweh, albeit not worshipping him. It was only due to the Hebrews initially benefiting from the seismic disaster that they turned it into a god. Yes, other volcano gods have existed, and the Greek one may have influenced yahweh (especially given there may have been Greek refugees in the exodus), but how many volcano gods started off with such a massive event that also 'saved' a lot of people? The piety it must have resulted in will have meant the religion remained intact. Religions that are casually adhered to will not survive.

There are ash buried cities around the Dead Sea. I didn't have time to research them enough last night. Unfortunately most information will be from Christian sources and although you will get archaeological evidence of ash buried cities in the region from the right era you may also get information ommissions or outright lies. For example, the link I posted earlier claimed the cities were buried in ash and small sulphar balls that were not volcanic but that were derived from volcanic-intense heat. No such sulphar balls exist so that is either a lie or incorrect information. Either way, that article was pulled one week after it went live. Did they get lab test results back that confirmed the volcanic origin of the balls? If any information is discovered by Christians that could potentially be the piece that puts the puzzle together, expect it to be kept hidden. The main Saudi mountain tipped as Mt Sinai is mentioned in wiki with no mention of its volcanic origin despite, again, being capped with black heat exposed rocks. I did find this wiki entry in another psuedo-wiki site and the text was the same...word-for-word...except it still contained 'of volcanic origin'. I smell a cover-up. These discovery Christians might be out to get what they can spiritually but they all seem to be earning money from what they do so we should assume they will tweak their findings to best suit their financial needs. Leaving in 'of volcanic origin' would not exactly inspire Christians to buy their books would it? More likely they'd burn all their bibles instead. Now some Christians do seem prepared to mention volcanic activity but eventually the penny will drop and they'll either erase all information or eat some humble pie before spreading the good news of truth and liberty. Don't expect Israel, Jordan, Egypt or Saudi to get involved much in this. That would be like expecting Santa to investigate his own validity. Their involvement will go as far as proving the validity of Yahweh. Arhaelogical discoveries that put god at risk will soon be swept under the carpet.

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Minimalist....

'However, your problem is the insistence on treating bible fairy tales as if they are real.'

I don't have a problem with it. You do. I treat all evidence the same....with discernment, albeit imperfectly. I feel sure it is a diary of events, mostly directions, names of places, laws, rituals, battles, etc. A think a vein of truth has been packaged with fantasy. There are two levels of untruth in the Bible. The first is the mistaken belief the volcanos were god. The second is the intentional packaging with fill-in and background myth. Once you appreciate the mistake that was made then you can picture the scene very easily. There is no logic to saying it was entirely fabricated. Evidence of them before they arrived in Israel will be skant as they lived like bedoins not leaving a trace. Besides, how long would you expect a broken pot to last in the desert? Sand blowing about will turn rocks into a beach. Once you give the Bible the benefit of the doubt then you start to realise it matches up with actual events, like the natural disaster I am uncovering that seems to have affected the whole of the Middle East. The skant evidence of natural disasters and evidence in the bible coroborate each other. There is a parallel there but you have to actively look for it. I've presented enough evidence to prove there is a definite correlation. Please go through my posts if you've missed it.

It is entirely possible for the Bible to contain a vein of truth and for it also to be wrong. It is possible to be an atheist and to believe some of the bible is true and that Jesus existed, the latter's existence even believed by Dawkins. It is, of course, much easier to just say it was all entirely fabricated.

'Of course Jesus was a theist, but that is the least interesting thing about him. He was a theist because, in his time, everybody was. Atheism was not an option, even for so radical a thinker as Jesus. What was interesting and remarkable about Jesus was not the obvious fact that he believed in the God of his Jewish religion, but that he rebelled against many aspects of Yahweh's vengeful nastiness. At least in the teachings that are attributed to him, he publicly advocated niceness and was one of the first to do so. To those steeped in the Sharia-like cruelties of Leviticus and Deuteronomy; to those brought up to fear the vindictive, Ayatollah-like God of Abraham and Isaac, a charismatic young preacher who advocated generous forgiveness must have seemed radical to the point of subversion. No wonder they nailed him.' Richard Dawkins.

[The Grand Nudger]

I feel sure does not equal it is

[Hannah]

I feel sure does not equal it is

What a clever boy you are?! That is the very reason I used 'I feel sure' rather than 'it is'.

Would you rather I use 'it is' rather than 'I feel sure' from now on?

Are we going to have a two page commentary now on this? Is this really necessary? Do you only ever spot the little niggly things that match your pessimistic outlook?

[The Grand Nudger]

Pessimist? I'm going to use you as a character reference the next time someone accuses me of being a hopeless optimist.

Do you have any more scripture that you would like for us to consider?

[Minimalist]

My belief is that the Hebrews were in Egypt during the Santorini eruption and that they heard via refugees descriptions of the volcano.

And, at the risk of cutting you off before you begin another absurd rant, THIS is your problem. You BELIEVE.

Facts are stubborn things so you ignore them and accept fiction.

1. There is no evidence that there were any "Hebrews" at all in the 17th century BC.

2. Egypt was not significantly impacted by Santorini's explosion - although her economy probably suffered because her trading partners were seriously damaged.

3. An exodus in 1625 BC would put the construction of the "temple" around 1200 BC and even fundies, stupid as they are, will not accept that.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but you are claiming your own facts. And you are simply wrong.