Quick Poll - Do you believe in God?

[Whateverist]

Why should be a.......crackpot idea .....when the feeling is so strong?
Internal feelings are not easily expressed.

Here is an idea for you. When you want to convey internal feelings why not just say that directly?

Instead of "I know that God does/wants/loves .."

just say "I feel strongly that ..".

That would be the difference between stating something as a fact when what you had was a difficult to express inner feeling.

[Tonus]

It can really be a very knotty question to deal with.

Only if you don't deal with it honestly.  Consider your example of emotions.  We know emotions exist because we experience them and we see others experience them and react in similar ways, ways we understand.  We can judge the intensity of emotions and we can even determine when a person is acting too emotional or suppressing emotion.  People even know how to manipulate the emotions of others, or feign emotion by the way they act.  We have a number of ways to determine that emotions exist.

Emotions, therefore, do not exist in some dimension that we cannot possibly experience, because we experience them all the time.  Hell, science is researching emotions in order to better understand them.  That is completely different from this spiritual or metaphysical dimension you claim is impossible to detect, yet for which you have many descriptions and explanations and information, and for which other people have completely different descriptions, explanations and information.

My guess is that this is where you'll try to go off on a tangent using exceptions to the rule regarding expression of emotions.  But that won't change the point I just made.  You cannot use emotions as an example of something undetectable that exists.  Same with thoughts and ideas, so let's skip those as well and see if we can't address the obvious problem with proving the undetectable.

[Angrboda]

i have no other choice than to say i believe considering that i am talking to people who only understand something
if they can see it in a physical-mental way.
Why should be a.......crackpot idea .....when the feeling is so strong?

The problem for you is that many of those here can understand things in more than a physical-mental way. Many of the people here were 'spiritual' before they became atheists. You err in presuming that because someone is committed to a physical-mental explanation of the world that they cannot understand in your way.They can, but they have realized the fallaciousness of depending on that. Around the world there are many varieties of Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Taoist and many religions that I can't even name. Perhaps some are just practicing 'religion', but in those are also people who are spiritual, and they feel those same intense feelings about their particular beliefs. Strong feelings can be wrong. They can't all be right about their 'chosen' spirituality. But you and they can all be wrong.

I was a Hindu until earlier this year so don't presume that I can't think "beyond the physical-mental" — I can — and so can many others here. We've just come to realize that depending on 'feelings' and 'spiritual intuitions' just leads nowhere. There is no check on the things you will believe because of 'feelings'. You can see that from the variety of spiritual practitioners all claiming to have found "the true intuitional science." It's a given that all but one group of you is likely wrong. What besides 'feelings' do you depend upon to tell you that you are the one who is right?

[Little Rik]

It can really be a very knotty question to deal with.

Only if you don't deal with it honestly.  Consider your example of emotions.  We know emotions exist because we experience them and we see others experience them and react in similar ways, ways we understand.  We can judge the intensity of emotions and we can even determine when a person is acting too emotional or suppressing emotion.  People even know how to manipulate the emotions of others, or feign emotion by the way they act.  We have a number of ways to determine that emotions exist.

Emotions, therefore, do not exist in some dimension that we cannot possibly experience, because we experience them all the time.  Hell, science is researching emotions in order to better understand them.  That is completely different from this spiritual or metaphysical dimension you claim is impossible to detect, yet for which you have many descriptions and explanations and information, and for which other people have completely different descriptions, explanations and information.

My guess is that this is where you'll try to go off on a tangent using exceptions to the rule regarding expression of emotions.  But that won't change the point I just made.  You cannot use emotions as an example of something undetectable that exists.  Same with thoughts and ideas, so let's skip those as well and see if we can't address the obvious problem with proving the undetectable.

It is true that it is undetectable but undetectable by physical science only.
Obvious.
How can physical science detect what is outside his competence?
It would be like if you try to see and experience what is outside a prison
from inside a prison.
Somebody could tell you what is outside but the feeling is not the same as to 
be outside. 

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i have no other choice than to say i believe considering that i am talking to people who only understand something
if they can see it in a physical-mental way.
Why should be a.......crackpot idea .....when the feeling is so strong?

The problem for you is that many of those here can understand things in more than a physical-mental way.  Many of the people here were 'spiritual' before they became atheists.  You err in presuming that because someone is committed to a physical-mental explanation of the world that they cannot understand in your way.They can, but they have realized the fallaciousness of depending on that.  Around the world there are many varieties of Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Taoist and many religions that I can't even name.  Perhaps some are just practicing 'religion', but in those are also people who are spiritual, and they feel those same intense feelings about their particular beliefs.  Strong feelings can be wrong.  They can't all be right about their 'chosen' spirituality.  But you and they can all be wrong.

I was a Hindu until earlier this year so don't presume that I can't think "beyond the physical-mental" — I can — and so can many others here.  We've just come to realize that depending on 'feelings' and 'spiritual intuitions' just leads nowhere.  There is no check on the things you will believe because of 'feelings'.  You can see that from the variety of spiritual practitioners all claiming to have found "the true intuitional science."  It's a given that all but one group of you is likely wrong.  What besides 'feelings' do you depend upon to tell you that you are the one who is right?

Sorry but your analysis doesn't take in consideration a simple fact.
Suppose i want to succeed in something but after a while i just give up because
i find the road to success too hard and then i tell you that that thing that i try to
succeed is not good.
Does my judgment make any sense?
Of course it doesn't.
I just don't render justice to the thing that i try to reach.
It happen to me years ago when i try to become good in martial arts.
After several moth of practice i just gave up.
It involve a lot of hard work and i didn't feel like continue.
I really think that it would be quite stupid to go around and say that 
Aikido is rubbish when in fact is very very good.
The same goes for your judgement.
People give up well before they reach the goal and then say that they gave up because there was no juice in it.
It just doesn't make sense. 

[Tonus]

It is true that it is undetectable but undetectable by physical science only.

Then it is undetectable, period. Any other "science" you allude to cannot produce what its adherents claim it is or does. And since its adherents can't even agree on how to interpret such sciences --and often make conflicting and irreconcilable claims regarding them-- you have nothing to offer that can be verified by anyone. That isn't science.

[Angrboda]

The problem for you is that many of those here can understand things in more than a physical-mental way.  Many of the people here were 'spiritual' before they became atheists.  You err in presuming that because someone is committed to a physical-mental explanation of the world that they cannot understand in your way.They can, but they have realized the fallaciousness of depending on that.  Around the world there are many varieties of Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Taoist and many religions that I can't even name.  Perhaps some are just practicing 'religion', but in those are also people who are spiritual, and they feel those same intense feelings about their particular beliefs.  Strong feelings can be wrong.  They can't all be right about their 'chosen' spirituality.  But you and they can all be wrong.

I was a Hindu until earlier this year so don't presume that I can't think "beyond the physical-mental" — I can — and so can many others here.  We've just come to realize that depending on 'feelings' and 'spiritual intuitions' just leads nowhere.  There is no check on the things you will believe because of 'feelings'.  You can see that from the variety of spiritual practitioners all claiming to have found "the true intuitional science."  It's a given that all but one group of you is likely wrong.  What besides 'feelings' do you depend upon to tell you that you are the one who is right?

Sorry but your analysis doesn't take in consideration a simple fact.
Suppose i want to succeed in something but after a while i just give up because
i find the road to success too hard and then i tell you that that thing that i try to
succeed is not good.

It wasn't an analysis. It was pointing out that your constant complaint that atheists don't 'understand' anything beyond the physical-mental is wrong. But leave it to you to change the subject.

You're projecting on other people the reason they came to the conclusions they did is the same. You don't know why these people ended their path. You have no basis for claiming the reasons are as you describe, and you didn't respond to the question of those who are on different paths but equally sincere. But then I didn't actually expect you to have an answer. You're answer doesn't cover all cases and is just an apologetic.

[Little Rik]

Sorry but your analysis doesn't take in consideration a simple fact.
Suppose i want to succeed in something but after a while i just give up because
i find the road to success too hard and then i tell you that that thing that i try to
succeed is not good.

It wasn't an analysis.  It was pointing out that your constant complaint that atheists don't 'understand' anything beyond the physical-mental is wrong.

I am not talking about atheists that are not interested in knowing whether God exist or not.
I am talking about atheists that pretend to know big when in fact they don't even know the small.
They think that the consciousness is a product of the brain.
How can the matter be superior to something much more powerful as the consciousness?
It  would be like to believe that the driver is a product of the car.
Just laughing.

But leave it to you to change the subject. You're projecting on other people the reason they came to the conclusions they did is the same.  You don't know why these people ended their path.  You have no basis for claiming the reasons are as you describe, and you didn't respond to the question of those who are on different paths but equally sincere.  But then I didn't actually expect you to have an answer.  You're answer doesn't cover all cases and is just an apologetic.

Actually the path to human emancipation are many but by taking the path full of spines and danger it is likely that most of the people will give up before they reach the goal of life
that is why it is very important to follow the path of those who have already reach the goal.

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It is true that it is undetectable but undetectable by physical science only.

Then it is undetectable, period.  Any other "science" you allude to cannot produce what its adherents claim it is or does.  And since its adherents can't even agree on how to interpret such sciences --and often make conflicting and irreconcilable claims regarding them-- you have nothing to offer that can be verified by anyone.  That isn't science.

If i can understand what you try to say (very intellectual indeed) you say that other people that also follow my path may not agree with me?
This is something new to me Ton.
In fact it is the opposite.   

[Cyberman]

Wouldn't it be more important to check first whether they have actually already reached that goal, or if they only say that they have to gain access to your money, fealty, obediance and so on? Is there a way to find this out objectively?

[Tonus]

Then it is undetectable, period.  Any other "science" you allude to cannot produce what its adherents claim it is or does.  And since its adherents can't even agree on how to interpret such sciences --and often make conflicting and irreconcilable claims regarding them-- you have nothing to offer that can be verified by anyone.  That isn't science.

If i can understand what you try to say (very intellectual indeed) you say that other people that also follow my path may not agree with me?
This is something new to me Ton.
In fact it is the opposite.   

I am saying that they can't verify the results.  Neither can you.  They can say they followed your path and got A, and you can say you got B, and neither of you can prove that the other is wrong.  Then another person can say that you got those results because of demons misleading you, and state that their path is the only true one.  But they are in the exact same boat as you are.  They can assert things all day long but they can't submit a single claim to scrutiny.

[Little Rik]

If i can understand what you try to say (very intellectual indeed) you say that other people that also follow my path may not agree with me?
This is something new to me Ton.
In fact it is the opposite.   

I am saying that they can't verify the results.  Neither can you.  They can say they followed your path and got A, and you can say you got B, and neither of you can prove that the other is wrong.  Then another person can say that you got those results because of demons misleading you, and state that their path is the only true one.  But they are in the exact same boat as you are.  They can assert things all day long but they can't submit a single claim to scrutiny.

All the water from the rivers sooner or later end up in the ocean to become one with the ocean.
Yoga is all about helping the flow to reach the ocean as soon as possible.
What's the point in getting stuck somewhere in the swamps and rotting for years or for lives after lives.
We are all different with different peculiarities so it obvious that there may be some small differences
in understanding how we should proceed but if we follow the correct path we are bound to merge in
the ocean and become one with the ocean.
How do you then know whether you are right or not?
As you can perceive that the flow get you closer and closer to the ocean you automatically know that you are doing well.
And how do you know that other people that also follow your path are also doing well or not?
This is very interesting indeed.
You can see from the eyes, and from the peace of mind of that person which you can perceive.
As you can perceive bad vibration from a drunkard you also can perceive good vibration from someone clean inside.







 

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Wouldn't it be more important to check first whether they have actually already reached that goal, or if they only say that they have to gain access to your money, fealty, obediance and so on? Is there a way to find this out objectively?

Gee, Stim you just open up my eyes.
Now i know why i am always broke and penniless.
I give all my money to my guru.
Even now, 25 years after his physical death i always go
where he was cremated and i leave my money there hoping for the paradise.
Well, now that you open my eyes i will NOT give any more money to him.
Thanks Stim for your important tip.
Are we still friends?
I hope so Stim, i couldn't do without your tips. 

Oh by the way.
How do i know that he is a real guru which reach the goal of life?
Because his method works very well and because he could (when alive) raise anybody
kundalini.