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Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
#11
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Yes but their ball was already dropped by default. They needed to provide evidence first.

They believe in God, they are arguing for God, they need to provide evidence.

And which is more bold positive claim anyway? Definitely FSM or definitely NO FSM? Despite the fact the 2nd is fallacious the first needs to be backed up first, right?

DEFINITELY NO FSM isn't as absurd and needing evidence as much as THE FSM DEFINITELY EXISTS.

EvF
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#12
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
No they don't, they are not claiming anything. He came in with guns blazing, not the theists.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#13
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
(March 17, 2009 at 11:02 am)poc243 Wrote: If you go to http://richarddawkins.net/article,3653,n,n
a commentary by richard dawkins, easily the world's most famous atheist. He says that it is "atheists" like you are the reason why atheists are the most hated religious group in america.
Keyword = religious group.

Dawkins didn't say that, the author was Zac Smith. It's hosted on Dawkins website is all.
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#14
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
(March 17, 2009 at 4:05 pm)leo-rcc Wrote: No they don't, they are not claiming anything. He came in with guns blazing, not the theists.

Where is the debate? They believe in a supernatural creator and have no evidence of its existence whatsoever. They have already lost the debate by default until they provide evidence, BEFORE any claims are made by the atheist side whatsoever.

Until they provide evidence for their absurd belief they have lost by default.

If I believed in Zeus for example and someone said it was disproved - YES they have made a fallacious argument... - because you can't prove a negative - BUT it doesn't matter because I've already lost by default before I provide evidence for the existence of Zeus! I believe in Zeus for Christ sake! I'd need evidence first! Who cares how fallacious my opponent is! I BELIEVE IN ZEUS! I'd need evidence for the existence of Zeus before we go ANY FURTHER! The burden is totally on me. I'm already assumed to have lost entirely by default - until I provide any evidence for such a way-out absurd belief in something so improbable lacking complete evidence!

I've already lost until I provide any! Where's the debate on the existence of Zeus until I SOMEHOW provided any evidence?! (and yes I believe its practically an impossible task basically) - but untill then I'm assumed to have lost. Until I provide any evidence - and, of course, its EXACTLY the same with God. The Christian God is no more valid than Zeus...and there is no debate over the existence of Zeus....so why should there be any over God? Evidence is needed first.

God by default almost certainly doesn't exist just as Zeus almost certainly doesn't. Evidence is needed for God first just as it is with God.

EvF
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#15
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Evf,

Don't you think I know all that already?

The point is, HE SCREWED UP! That's it, end of story. No if and or buts, that's it.

You can argue till your blue in the face but that will get you nowhere. Yes the arguments used are flawed but he had to turn to others to get out of a hole he dug himself. He lost. He'll get over it.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
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#16
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
They had already lost from the outset though. Step one was for them to provide evidence...until they do they've lost...there's no real debate....

Hey I could positively claim that the FSM DEFINITELY 100% doesn't exist in a debate with Pastafarian....does that mean I've lost the debate because my argument is fallacious? There's no real debate here is there! He believes in the FSM FFS! Until there's any evidence provided by this hypothetical Pastafarian for the existence of the FSM there's no debate here! The Pastafarian has already lost by default.

And it should be treated the same with Christians and belief in God in a debate as it would be Pastafarians and belief in the FSM.

Until there's any evidence of the FSM...there's no debate! The Pastafarian has already lost by default.

Until there's any evidence of God...there's no debate! The Christian has already lost by default.
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#17
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Evf,

What are you trying to prove with your last three messages? It is just a lot of text and you are not adding anything useful just stating the obvious and repeating yourself.

I am well aware of the burden of proof, but if you think that you can't get called upon if you make a positive claim against theists you are dead wrong. That is exactly what Poc243 did and he fell for the trap.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Pastafarian
Reply
#18
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
I just don't think its possible for an atheist to 'lose a debate' against a theist though...theists have already lost by default until they have provided evidence.

Just as Pastafarians have lost by default until they provide evidence for their totally absurd FSM! I could provide 1000 fallacious arguments against the Pastafarian and have him debunking all 1000 fallacies of mine...but he's already lost by default....there is no debate at all until any evidence is provided whatsoever for such an absurd belief as the FSM....the Pastafarian has lost by default....

It should be considered totally the same with theists in general be it Christian or whatever...they have already lost the debate by default until they provide evidence for such an absurd belief in such a highly improbable being....doesn't matter how many fallacies are said against them...they've already lost by default - there is no debate.

They need evidence first or they've already lost the debate before its even got started and before ANY arguments have been given; HOWEVER fallacious the arguments are afterwards...they've already lost 'the debate' before hand. There is nothing debatable here in the first place - until evidence has been provided before hand for such a belief.

EvF
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#19
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
(March 17, 2009 at 7:31 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: I just don't think its possible for an atheist to 'lose a debate' against a theist though...theists have already lost by default until they have provided evidence.
That's such an arrogant statement. Sorry to say EvF, but you have no idea how debates on philosophy work. Nobody has "lost by default" because in the whole concept of philosophy is to give no absolute answers. The whole philosophical debate is all about presenting the best logical argument of your position.

Now if we were talking about scientific debate, then yes. You couldn't publish a scientific paper on "The existence of God" without providing empirical evidence to support it. It would get rejected, and the theists (and atheists) have both lost the scientific debate by default. This is why science has no position on the existence of the so-called "supernatural". As soon as it does have a position on something supernatural, that supernatural becomes natural.

Philosophical debates are all about scoring points using logic. It doesn't matter about the reality of the situation, because the debate isn't about reality, it is about logic. If you make bad logical arguments, you lose the debate.
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#20
RE: Outsmarted by a Christian, need help to contradict
Just to check that I understand this correctly, being a newcomer to atheism and philosophy, the OP lost the debate because he made the positive claim that there was no god, but since there is no evidence to prove that, he lost. There is a lack of evidence, which means it is unreasonable to believe in god, with out any claim on whether he exists or not, but the OP didn't take this line of reasoning.

And a philosophical debate starts from ground zero, no one is more right or wrong than the other until the first argument is made.

Correct?
"I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability." Oscar Wilde
My Blog | Why I Don't Believe in God
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