Soul - your views on it?

[fr0d0]

You were born with it. Where, in my belief system, do you get that it was created from nothing?

From You. You told me god creates from nothing since he doesn't need to divide up his own consciousness.

Sorry, you keep switching contexts. Everything didn't come from something: that's a given.

But to answer your secular questions...
Do people with more faith in themselves have and measure of success greater than those who have no faith in their abilities?
Are people who have faith in others misguided always?

I don't know, I can't speak for other people, and I wouldn't say this was secular. I have no faith in anything. If I live, I live. If I die, I die. This applies to everything in my life. It's that simple.

Well it's nothing to do with religious faith.
I'm the same as you. I can make the same silly statements refusing to address the question.

You have a soul. it's part of you.

So you claim, but you haven't been able to provide a positive ontology for it yet.

I don't claim it. I'm simply relating the belief to you.
I provided a detailed ontology a few posts ago.

You couldn't remove it. No one lacks it.

Can I lose, damage or destroy it then? Or have it taken via theft?

No.

Live contrary to the laws of nature and you suffer the consequences immediately.

That's why, if we say hypothetically speaking, god's existence becomes demonstrable, then I want out of his "Seahaven" creation. If you don't live in his reality the laws don't apply. Consequently I may cease to exist as a result of entering "nothingness" but it's my decision, and is infinitely better than the former where you let someone else make the decisions for you forever, thereby opening yourself to nearly every form of abuse conceivable.

You just want to live without the consequences of the bad stuff you do. You don't believe in the human system of crime and punishment.

You know what though... that is exactly Gods setup. You're forgiven. You get an unlimited get out of jail free card ...and yet YOU STILL COMPLAIN!!! Unbelievable. How far you're willing to go with no argument to back it up.

it would be a constant bloody contest between my will and the convicting and wooing of the Holy Spirit, the struggle causes the torment.

You nailed it.

It would be the same as you refusing food and water. You know it's what your body naturally needs, but you refuse to accept that truth.

Discovering that an omniscient god created everything and knew only too well about reality's inevitable shortcomings but willed it anyway...

Then you can't accept reality by the same token.

In your theology God demands obedience, readiness and love. I can't give these. I don't love your god because he's fictional, I can detest his actions in the collection of writings, but its not the same thing. If proven real, I wouldn't love your god because I utterly hate and abhor his contemptuous character. But I don't want to live/exist in that hatred constantly, that's why I have to try and leave his "Seaheaven" for the void outside so I can forget his nightmare and reflect upon the tranquillity of the abyss.

That doesn't address my belief. It's a creation of yours.

God 'demands obedience' only in that he is the only healthy choice. We have the choice to choose health or harm. Love in return for immeasurable love eminating from hm.

[The Grand Nudger]

God 'demands obedience' only in that he is the only healthy choice. We have the choice to choose health or harm. Love in return for immeasurable love eminating from hm.

I think you're going to have a difficult time substantiating that one Frodo. How does that square against the 193,000 years of christless existence, or indeed the last 2,000 years of abuse in his very name? What metrics would you possibly be referring to? I wasn't aware that medical professionals prescribed christ as a cure or treatment for anything.

[Welsh cake]

Sorry, you keep switching contexts.

If you think that then I apologise, I'm simply trying to get the classifications of Nature and Spirit of the soul and god's "soul" defined and was asking for clarity.

Everything didn't come from something: that's a given.

I need to point out you've got it arse backwards, something does come from something, that's how nature works - which is why I was asking you to be specific before so I didn't misinterpret what you were arguing. Even ancient Greek philosophers recognised back in their time that "Nothing comes from nothing", argued by Parmendies, indeed, its work associated with cosmology had become their cornerstone of almost every philosophical system. They argued nothing was created "ex nihilo" to start with, what exists now has always existed in some form or other, since no new matter can come into existence where there was none before and neither can it ever cease to exist.

To quote from the explicit statement in Empedocles directly: "For it is impossible for anything to come to be from what is not, and it cannot be brought about or heard of that what is should be utterly destroyed"

This idea about the nature of our universe's totality and mass was eventually developed into the laws of Conservation of mass and energy. You're violating them.

This is why Pantheists and Panentheists sneakily assert the universe IS god, god-in-all or all-in-god or something to that fashion. Souls, consciousnesses and beings are all but a small part of god's being, so it belongs in that mainstream. I can understand the 'appeal', given that as far as we know this reality has always existed in some form or other; its loosely compatible with their religious beliefs in that god has no beginning or end; though why we can't just call it the "cosmos" until it actually demonstrates some form of sentience is beyond me.

Well it's nothing to do with religious faith.
I'm the same as you. I can make the same silly statements refusing to address the question.

Frodo, last time now, I don't have faith in anything. Full stop. Not to mention being an atheist I obviously don't believe in god or any religious concepts, at all. I acknowledge them as the product of our imagination but don't actually think they're remotely factual nor is it possible for me to have faith in them as I consider them to be unreal.

I don't claim it. I'm simply relating the belief to you.
I provided a detailed ontology a few posts ago.

You are making an assertion of the truth, arguing for the positive ontological existence of god and souls; this assertion in dispute and/or in doubt between you and me. Yes Frodo you are claiming it, and I am responding to that claim, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion right now.

No.

Well that sucks. I wasn't even given a choice in the matter and now I'm stuck with this damn ball-and-chain, tethering me to existence, something to be used as leverage against me, a shooting target to hold me accountable to some uppity judging creator.

*sigh* since I can't destroy this wretched soul please tell me what can I do with it? Aside from target practice for a deity?

You just want to live without the consequences of the bad stuff you do.

Frodo I resent your creator concept hiding then showing up after I'm dead judging me for arbitrary offences to his divinity or backward law. I don't want some god making me feel shit about myself because everything I did, action and/or inaction, is an affront to his godhead. Who doesn't want sheer, instantaneous liberation from this life and its imposed rules? No objective consequence means it's a paradise, there are no accidents or disasters - nothing can go feasibly wrong.

You don't believe in the human system of crime and punishment.

That's an erroneous statement AND an asinine comparison. First of all, while I wouldn't object to an impossibly perfect world for mankind without rules or restrictions, I am still very much aware I'm accountable to six billion other human beings on this Earth, in this real-world. As insignificant as I am, my actions can still have far-reaching consequences that I couldn't even fathom. I am a law-abiding citizen. I want to set up a mentality in society that it benefits all of us if we treat each other as nicely as possible. What I am not is a person who subscribes to religious dogma without question, because then god always comes first and man gets subjugated under his tyrannical rule which isn't fair or right whichever way you cut the cake.

And also, me seeking to be separate from an intolerable god to avoid his wrath and persecution, has nothing to do with me somehow being immoral and simply wanting to commit acts of violence or evil without punishment. That's absurd. How can I commit evil being alone by myself in a vast abyss outside "Seahaven"? First off, god isn't accountable by man, and punishing someone with infinite sentences for finite crimes isn't moral or just, its madness.

Might doesn't make right and that goes double for god who should know better if he's truly a higher-being possessing intellectual facilities that are beyond ours. I don't want to go down the longwinded "morality" road here though, because we've got three fragging debates going on simultaneously about said topic matter elsewhere on these forums. But let me say this though: I'm a overall, a good-hearted ordinary individual, and this is coming from my theistic mother who believes in god. I think you are no different frodo, since you sound like a decent guy. I'd happily give up my life for my family and even random strangers who are in harm's way. I may have evil thoughts like everyone else but I am not evil-incarnate. Too dark for Heaven and too bright for Hell my mum once called me, if that makes any sense. >.>

Despite the fact that I regard your god with revulsion and disgust for his crimes against humanity, I don't want to hurt or murder him (I know that's impossible according to your theology just hear me out as I'm trying to make a point here, just accept it for sake of argument). I also don't want your god concept bringing hellfire down upon me either.

You know what though... that is exactly Gods setup. You're forgiven.

Oh that's another thing, god punishes the son for the sins of the father? That's not moral or just either! It's vile and despicable. You tell me to let go of my hatred and contempt for god without being allowed to leave and yet he couldn't even find it in his heart to pardon his own beloved innocent creation for disobeying him just once. That's not a loving parent. A loving father forgives endlessly and forgets in a heartbeat when the apology is sincere. According to the Bible god is constantly angry. That's not love, that's an uncompromising and surly monster.

You get an unlimited get out of jail free card ...and yet YOU STILL COMPLAIN!!! Unbelievable. How far you're willing to go with no argument to back it up.

I'm not complaining if I'm free to leave god for the serenity of nothingness outside, unless you're implying that is impossible because he wants my [his] soul back.

If you truly love someone you let them go. If they never come back, they never loved you to begin with. If they return, they are yours to adore forever.

You nailed it.

Why won't your god give up the soul then if he sees he's causing it nothing but pain? I don't force myself onto anyone who doesn't want me around, even if I want the best for them, why should he?

It would be the same as you refusing food and water. You know it's what your body naturally needs, but you refuse to accept that truth.

Listen if he's proven real after death then I'm "living" with the regret I was created by a malevolent deity for its own amusement; don't you think that's burden enough? I despise this set-up where we're made for god and not ourselves, its just not fair.

Then you can't accept reality by the same token.

Yes I can. I can admire a creator-less reality as a living spectator, a witness to its stunning complexity. But that awe turns to horror when the revelation is reached that a god created everything for its own sick and twisted purpose and pleasure. Suddenly the wondrous universe melts away and becomes a prison, a joke. It's all but a game to him.

The cosmos is now a chessboard where we're nothing but pathetic pawns for this deity to do as he pleases. We have to go, fight and stay where he wants. He can sacrifice us left, right and center, discarding the majority of us like we're nothing whatsoever. Then there is that one pawn that he has favoured to survive and make it to the end of board to be glorified as a queen. That former-pawn becomes a complacent puppet, thinking how magnificent this grandmaster, this puppeteer, is to make it a chosen piece, the instrument of god's purpose when half the board is in disarray and many have died and fallen away for NOTHING.

That doesn't address my belief. It's a creation of yours.

Okay I'll accept that because I'm still trying to establish what you believe exactly, I still don't know if you're a Universalist or not at this precise conjecture.

God 'demands obedience' only in that he is the only healthy choice.

Frodo, if you regard god is not monstrous and his only weapon is love itself, we still have absolutely nothing in common - at all. At best he'll get apathy from me, and that's if you believe the Bible does not accurately reflect his nature or personality. There will only be feelings of indifference, dejection and fear in its presence, given time they will develop into intense loathing. He's god, which I hazard you take is three incomprehensible beings rolled into one, utterly vast and encompassing.

I'm just me. My worldview cannot cope with accommodating a reality-creating god whose exact nature lacks comparison or a proper comprehension (I don't think anyone's can). I have simple needs and none of my hopes or dreams involves this being. You cannot bridge that gulf, that massive gap between creator and creation, with just a lukewarm feeling of "fondness". >.> I don't believe for a second the Biblical god is as loving as theists assert he is, by the way.

We have the choice to choose health or harm.

I can only choose what I think is best for me, if freedom in death isn't a viable option anymore then all I know for certain is being around a vengeful creator in this "Eden 2/Seahaven 2", who is constantly watching, always judging, waiting for you to fail, so he can exile you back to the slums and reset everything all over again, is a living hell. I'd rather the emptiness of the void away from him any day. If I die alone out there then it was meant to be.

Love in return for immeasurable love emanating from him.

All for nought if the creation knowing it was created doesn't find any reason to love itself. God's love fails if the object of his passion (the soul) has no self-love - it cannot possibly reciprocate that affection. And if god's possessing immeasurable self-love then he doesn't want or need to be loved by any mortal to start with.

[The Grand Nudger]

The description of god both in scripture and in what I see offered forward in this thread is that of a psychopath. The notion that this thing presses it's "love" upon those who do not welcome it, and the actions that it is willing to undertake when that love is refused would lead to a cut and dry clinical diagnosis of one or more psychotic disorders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy

I'm left wondering why anyone would manufacture a psychopath to inhabit the recesses of their mind in the first place. Even stranger to me is the desire for this psychopath to actually exist outside of the confines of one's own mind. Surely any cage is better than no cage for an entity so malevolent?

[The Magic Pudding]

Not a bad fish, bones can be separated from flesh with novice level fork skills. Lemon's always good with quasi meat.

[Welsh cake]

Not a bad fish, bones can be separated from flesh with novice level fork skills. Lemon's always good with quasi meat.

Sorry?

[The Magic Pudding]

Not a bad fish, bones can be separated from flesh with novice level fork skills. Lemon's always good with quasi meat.

Sorry?

[fr0d0]

@ WC

Everything from nothing - this is a material supposition I made. It has nothing to do with my beliefs. The Xtian bible says nothing about material creation.

Faith in God - you thought that I thought you had any???

I find it hard to believe that you would be so subservient to the secular world and then express a violently opposing view when considering an infallible judge. Something is seriously mixed up in your head.

You're arguing against a force for good being ultimately successful. That goes against my personal experience.

Aesops fable:
The wind and the Sun were disputing which was the stronger. Suddenly they saw a traveller coming down the road, and the Sun said: “I see a way to decide our dispute. Whichever of us can cause that traveller to take off his cloak shall be regarded as the stronger You begin.” So the Sun retired behind a cloud, and the Wind began to blow as hard as it could upon the traveller. But the harder he blew the more closely did the traveller wrap his cloak round him, till at last the Wind had to give up in despair. Then the Sun came out and shone in all his glory upon the traveller, who soon found it too hot to walk with his cloak on.

[Epimethean]

The Great Pumpkin is real, too. I saw a television special about it.

[The Grand Nudger]

You think the sun was a force for good there? Sounds like he was physically cooking the traveler. Interesting, because I find parallels in your god narrative. Instead of trying to push us to do good behavior, he'll just roast us instead.