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God Became a Mirage
#11
RE: God Became a Mirage
I can see what edward is saying about atheistic faith. If someone tells me theres an ice cream truck coming around the corner I can simply have faith that he is telling the truth and go get my change or I can peek around the corner to see if theres a truck. No gods involved but, it's me putting faith in something.

However even as an atheist I do not agree with all of the points above, nor do I have knowledge enough in most of them to say either way.

As far as asking what is it I don't beleive in, the list is infinite. God is just a word, used by many people with diferent definitions. I try not to define it myself, let the people who beleive in their god define their beleifs and then I'll say whether or not I accept those beleifs.

If you must have an answer, the christian god, the god of the jews and Allah I do not beleive in. I do not see anything that would cause me to think there is a personal god of any kind.

If you would suggest there could be a god that does not interact with us personally, he created the universe and let it run it's course, observing. Sure, there totally could be but, in that case it doesn't affect me. Someday maybe scientific study will reveal this god, and it will be very interesting to learn about it but, if we never discovered this god we could not be affected any less.

In the end it comes down to the burden of proof. I'm not claiming anything, I'm hearing other tell me theres a man in the sky watching me pee and I'm saying 'prove it'.

I will concede that I am more militaristic about it than needed, I see people living their lives for something that from my view does not exist. I see life as a very wonderful thing and it's almost painful to see a life squandered. It's their choice to do what they want with their life but, I also never claimed that I was being fair in encouraging people to grow towards my way of thinking.
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#12
RE: God Became a Mirage
(March 20, 2009 at 4:47 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Ed mate, you're gonna have to stop believing the crap those damned theists have been filling your head with ... atheism isn't a philosophy, it's what you are when you stop believing in god or gods.

I think that's the technical definition, but I think it's safe to say there is an "atheist culture," if you will. I'm not brainwashed by the fundies on this, I can see it for myself. I've read lots of books by the gurus of atheism. But, you are right, atheism in its strictest definition is simply not believing that God exists.

Quote:My answer would be nothing without good reason (and that always means solid, reproducible evidence).

Good luck finding that in the more speculative sciences. For instance, most people I know believe there is likely to be other life forms on other planets somewhere in the universe. There is, to date, 0 evidence to support that. In fact, all the evidence that we have so far says there is no other life anywhere except on earth. Most people would believe Hitler was a murderer when there is no evidence he killed anyone but himself. Most people believe Charlie Manson is a murderer, when there is no evidence that he actually killed anyone in his life.

My point is, that we all believe lots of things without good reason. We have to or we'll go insane with fear (e.g., we believe when we go to the video store we will survive the trip, again 0 evidence).

I believe my theory of reality is true, but as of yet, I have no reproduceable evidence, but I hope to have it some day, perhaps in the form of an equation, perhaps in the form of thought experiments or a prediction from a theory that comes true.
(March 20, 2009 at 5:09 pm)Demonaura Wrote: As far as asking what is it I don't beleive in, the list is infinite. God is just a word, used by many people with diferent definitions. I try not to define it myself, let the people who beleive in their god define their beleifs and then I'll say whether or not I accept those beleifs.

I agree

Quote:If you must have an answer, the christian god, the god of the jews and Allah I do not beleive in. I do not see anything that would cause me to think there is a personal god of any kind.

I suppose I'm 180 out from that. I consider nature to be monistic. That is, I consider everything to really be only one thing, one substance. So, I'm God, you're God, my calculator is God, etc. And it's because of that super-personal view of nature that I do not believe in the God of Christianity, et al. In fact, I don't even like the word "God" at all. Just to say the word implies a dualism (that is that there is for instance material and spiritual, or that there is God and apart from Him is man, or as I define it that there is nothing in-between separate entities that exist), and dualism is impossible. IMHO.

Quote:If you would suggest there could be a god that does not interact with us personally, he created the universe and let it run it's course, observing. Sure, there totally could be but, in that case it doesn't affect me. Someday maybe scientific study will reveal this god, and it will be very interesting to learn about it but, if we never discovered this god we could not be affected any less.

True. A deistic God simply leaves us without a God that is in anyway meaningful to us. It's also the worst form of dualism.

Quote:In the end it comes down to the burden of proof. I'm not claiming anything, I'm hearing other tell me theres a man in the sky watching me pee and I'm saying 'prove it'.

I agree with you.

Quote:I will concede that I am more militaristic about it than needed, I see people living their lives for something that from my view does not exist. I see life as a very wonderful thing and it's almost painful to see a life squandered. It's their choice to do what they want with their life but, I also never claimed that I was being fair in encouraging people to grow towards my way of thinking.

What do you mean, militaristic?
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#13
RE: God Became a Mirage
Cool so we are on the same page for most things. I should have been more clear with the word militaristic though, it's the best word I can think of but, it doesn't fit perfectly.

I see religion as an overall bad thing, sure there are some good things but, everything does some good and the good things can be done without the indoctrination. So when I say that I am militaristic it's because I openly tell theists why I think their beleifs are dangerous and willfully ignorant of the world around them. I try to be fair but, on my end, they may as well beleive in Santa. Just a Santa that tells them to kill people/bomb abortion clinics/sit around praying instead of actually helping people.ect

That said I am not anti-theist, I do not hold it against the person if they are a theist. I have theist friends, have for some time. But, even in those friends all the predjudices they have, nearly every moral point we disagree on they follow because of their religion, not because they have any real experience.

Hope that clears it up, I'm just openly against religion.

While I'm here a little example story of why I hate christianity (one of the reasons) amoung other religions. In this case christianity though. While there are exeptions (and I'm pleased to know there are) the christian churches have this hate of homosexuals. One of my friends, a christian once admitted that on a survey he answered that he thought homosexuality should be illigal. I explained to him he may as well make being left handed illigal too, gay people can't choose it's the way their brains are wired. If there is a god, he made them that way. At first my friend thought I was joking, he could not see that it was a choice so, I showed him the research and news articles.

Point being, he was willing to support direct harm to people he new not one single damn thing about simply because his parents said god doesn't like these people. He was willing to hurt them, to supress an entire section of the population without knowing shit about anything.

And if your curious, when I tried to follow up, he dodges the subject. I doubt he learned anything, I suspect he asked his parents about it and they spouted some shit about scientists being satanists and it's just a lie to fool people away from god.
http://ca.youtube.com/user/DemonAuraProductions - Check out my videos if you have spare time.
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#14
RE: God Became a Mirage
I think you mean militant.
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#15
RE: God Became a Mirage
/facepalm.

Yes, yes I did.
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#16
RE: God Became a Mirage
(March 20, 2009 at 4:07 pm)Edward Wrote: What is God? You say you don't believe in it, so what is it that you don't believe in?

Any supernatural creator of the universe. That is what I design as God.

I also don't believe in ANYTHING supernatural but that is actually by definition a slightly separate point from my atheism I think...

I could technically believe in supernatural fairies for example and still be considered atheist techinally...if I still don't believe in God....

But I haven't met many atheists that believe in fairies but not God! Usually because if they reject something like God they'll very probably reject fairies or angels or whatever...

But its technically possible because they are not God's by the conventional definition, or at least the one I mean - Supernatural CREATOR. Not simply supernatural...

I do not believe in anything else supernatural either. But my atheism is specifically about not believing in a supernatural CREATOR; i.e - A God.

Quote:OK, so in your opinion, what I hear you to be saying is that God, defined as a supernatural creator of the universe, does not exist. I'm not saying I disagree, but I'd like to see how far this rabbit hole goes. Would you say that God, defined as a supernatural creator of the universe cannot exist?

No I would not. I would be claiming absolute knowledge which I don't have access do to say he ABSOLUTELY cannot exist. I would say he almost certainly cannot.....and if he comes in future (which I also see as almost infinitely improbable) then by definition he would not be a God at least by my eyes....because God would be there at the start.. God is not created he is a creator...a supernatural creator.

I would say God almost certainly doesn't exist and almost certainly cannot. But I would say they are the same thing because I he exists or he doesn't....

I understand with your idea of us becoming God by becoming one with God - but that is not the definition of God I am using.

By my definition God =a Supernatural creator...he created the universe so he cannot be created...he is the creator.

God is supposed to have made the universe and God is supposed to have ultimately made man...either by just started off the universe and life or whatever and giving rise to man...or by directly creating him like in Genesis.

So God is supposed to have made man...not man made God.

If man made God then by my definition its not a God - its something else, be it supernatural or natural or whatever...paranormal...what you consider to be an anomaly that 'most people' don't know about but you sense it or whatever...

Because by my definition it would not be a God because what I mean by God is the supernatural creator of the universe...if its not a supernatural creator its not God the way I see it at least.


Quote:I believe all there is is nature.
Me too. I don't believe there is anything supernatural...I don't believe there is any SUPER-Nature as it were...its all natural, all nature, everything IMO.

Quote:Wouldn't that be atheism? There is no god, there is only nature.
Well generally speaking atheists certainly I think...tend to[i/] not believe in ANYTHING supernatural...but its the supernatural CREATOR - the "God" part - that defines atheism...

So its technically possible to find someone who believes in ghosts, leprechauns, souls, angels, fairies and demons I think....who doesn't believe in God and is therefore still by definition an atheist...albeit a weird and very rare one - but still an atheist. if you found someone who believed that they'd still be an atheist if they don't believe in God.

That's if you definite atheism as not believing in God as in [i]a supernatural creator of the universe
anyway.

Quote:Or are you going to tell me that atheists don't believe nature exists?

No lol...atheists don't believe in a supernatural creator by definition, that is all. Everything else is optional...belief or non-belief in nature or whatsoever.

Although I don't see how atheist could not believe in nature! They believe things exist....and they don't believe God exists - who is supernatural - what would they think everything else IS if its not nature? Lol.

I haven't met an atheist who doesn't believe in nature...I don't see how that's possible because what would they think it is otherwise? They could call it something else but if they believe in ANYTHING and don't believe that thing is supernatural, but natural then they believe in nature lol!

You'd have to find an atheist who believes EVERYTHING is SUPERnatural....but not believe in a supernatural CREATOR a God...so therefore still an atheist lol....

I don't know how the hell that works though lol...I think that would simply be a semantic thing because if EVERYTHING is supernatural then there's no real contrast between The Supernatural and nature! So if everything is supernatural then that would kind of make everything natural and nature wouldn't it? Because there is no distintion.

Reminds me of that bit from the movie The Incredibles: how if everyone is SUPER - then no one is.

Because there's no contrast.

So it would just be mixing definitions I think...I don't see how anyone could not believe in nature because they would have to believe nothing that isn't supernatural exists...or that EVERYTHING is supernatural that kind of makes if natural...nevermind atheism - I don't see how ANYONE could not believe in "nature"? Unless it was just a semantic thing so they simply didn't 'call it' nature. or they were a loony or that they thought that "Nothing exists! Its all an ilussion! All a dream", etc, etc.

I would have thought basically EVERYONE believes in nature....the natural world - or at least to SOME extent! If you believed that everything was spiritual and we are living in 'not' a natural world but a 'Spirit world' then that would kind of make that the norm, the natural. So the spiritual would also be what's natural and therefore also be nature. Even if you 'don't call it nature'

But the point is here....belief or non-belief in nature itself however that would work....is not part of the definition of atheism.

Atheism is specifically about the absence of belief in "God" and by my definition: A Supernatural CREATOR of the universe.

Quote:Not at all. You ramble well.Smile

AH...really? Maybe THAT'S why people put up with me lol...I may ramble - and it can be annoying - but at least I ramble WELL. Lol :p

Quote:Thanks!
You're welcome.

EvF
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#17
RE: God Became a Mirage
(March 21, 2009 at 2:47 am)Edward Wrote: I think that's the technical definition, but I think it's safe to say there is an "atheist culture," if you will. I'm not brainwashed by the fundies on this, I can see it for myself. I've read lots of books by the gurus of atheism. But, you are right, atheism in its strictest definition is simply not believing that God exists.

I donm't think there is ... the only thing we really agree on is that we don't believe in gods ... that's it. Name anything else we supposedly have in common and someone will probably be able to cite an atheist who doesn't believe that or do that. Atheism isn't a philosophy or a culture.

(March 21, 2009 at 2:47 am)Edward Wrote: Good luck finding that in the more speculative sciences. For instance, most people I know believe there is likely to be other life forms on other planets somewhere in the universe. There is, to date, 0 evidence to support that. In fact, all the evidence that we have so far says there is no other life anywhere except on earth. Most people would believe Hitler was a murderer when there is no evidence he killed anyone but himself. Most people believe Charlie Manson is a murderer, when there is no evidence that he actually killed anyone in his life.

Speculative science don't claim to be fact. What most people believe is largely irrelevant isn't it? Most people once believed the world was flat ... belief has no relationship to what actually is.

(March 21, 2009 at 2:47 am)Edward Wrote: My point is, that we all believe lots of things without good reason. We have to or we'll go insane with fear (e.g., we believe when we go to the video store we will survive the trip, again 0 evidence).

People do, even atheists, but again is that relevant ... it has nothing to do with what is.

(March 21, 2009 at 2:47 am)Edward Wrote: I believe my theory of reality is true, but as of yet, I have no reproduceable evidence, but I hope to have it some day, perhaps in the form of an equation, perhaps in the form of thought experiments or a prediction from a theory that comes true.

What theory of reality? Did I miss something?

Kyu
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#18
RE: God Became a Mirage
(March 21, 2009 at 4:01 am)Demonaura Wrote: Point being, he was willing to support direct harm to people he new not one single damn thing about simply because his parents said god doesn't like these people. He was willing to hurt them, to supress an entire section of the population without knowing shit about anything.

I'm a prude when it comes to sex. I'm very conservative. I don't flirt with other women; I don't cheat on my wife; and I don't like being flirted with. It makes me uncomfortable. I have a lot of hang ups and I don't think people in glass houses should throw stones. Having said that, I couldn't care less about gays. People can be whatever the hell they want to be, so long as they don't touch me.

Yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up for me.
(March 21, 2009 at 6:12 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Atheism is specifically about the absence of belief in "God" and by my definition: A Supernatural CREATOR of the universe.

Not to throw a monkey wrench in the works or anything, but if God exists as the creator of the universe, He would, by definition, be natural, not supernatural. Unless one is a dualist and separates God from nature, which is absurd in my opinion. Obviously something started the universe, if the big bang is to be believed, and if it isn't then something is the universe. But that says nothing about "God." Words have connotations and the connotation of God, pretty much worldwide, is not a being I believe exists. I don't even entertain concepts like supernatural. So, you and I are in agreement there.

But here's the rub: I know--I don't believe--I know I have had precognitive dreams. I have them fully documented. I don't have them often, and there have only been two that have been so startling as to make me feel almost insane. I don't like them at all. I don't want any form of precognition at all. There's nothing pleasant about it, in my opinion. Having said that. I don't consider it supernatural. I consider it a phenomenon we don't know how to explain at this time. But so what, there are many things about consciousness we don't quite fully understand. There are many things about sub-atomic particles we don't fully understand. It doesn't mean they are supernatural, they are natural. We just haven't developed a way to study them yet.

Now, you can't know if my experience was real or not. No matter how much you believe or disbelieve that I am telling you the truth, no matter how much you want to deny or believe in a phenomenon like precognition doesn't matter. You can't know it. However to actively believe it is in no way possible, is to be ignorant. And I would know that, but you wouldn't, because I could compare the experience against what you believe.

My point is just this: in general, we should be open-minded and in no way dogmatic about anything.
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#19
RE: God Became a Mirage
I am not dogmatic (at least i hope not!) I doubt everything...

The furthest I will go against God or something just as improbable is to believe that that something almost certainly doesn't exist, or can't exist.
I do not claim access to absolute knowledge. That would be God's place IF he exists ( I say he ALMOST certainly doesn't).
I am still agnostic about God...not gnostic. In the sense I do not claim the absolute, which is what gnosticism would be.

Now God would be supernatural because he would not simply be 'the first cause'...by SUPERNATURAL creator I am not including something like a 'big bang' singularity... - far from it.. that would be natural.

I'm talking about a supernatural super being (in whatever form) that DESIGNED the universe...it CREATED it....it wasn't PART of the universe that started it off...
OR it was part of the universe BUT it was - and IS in this hypothetical alternative reality where this "God" exists - very unlike the rest of it...rather than being something simple at the start that other stuff developed from - it was an anomaly compared with everything else that is WAY more complex and sophisticated than all the natural things that it creates and designs...

The hypothetical "God" is SUPERnatural and not natural in the sense it is a highly complex intelligent designer that was there right from the start and capable of creating a whole lot of things...by design.. its outside the box and like nothing else. Created from scratch - or from itself...
And it is highly complex simple because it is capable of doing all these things right from the start....this "God" is 'just there' and is capable of 'creating it all'...that's not natural in the sense its like nothing else and was a lot more complex than all 'the natural' stuff and is capable of designing it right from the start.

You get a super being creating the universe right from the start - that is what I mean by a supernatural creator.

Btw, are these dreams you speak of like highly intense lucid dreams or something like that?
I've had them like one or two times in a negative way...can be scary - you don't know what's going on but you are 'there and aware' of it.
I've had more pleasant ones though luckily.

EvF
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#20
RE: God Became a Mirage
(March 21, 2009 at 11:17 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Speculative science don't claim to be fact. What most people believe is largely irrelevant isn't it? Most people once believed the world was flat ... belief has no relationship to what actually is.

Never a truer word spoken.

Quote:What theory of reality? Did I miss something?

Sorry. That is that nature is monistic.
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