My conversion has been an extremely gradual realization that what I believe is not the same thing as believing in God. I thought it was for a long time. But I know now that such is not the case.

That doesn't mean I'm some reject who throws out the baby with the bathwater and follows atheistic doctrine with the same deluded illogic that the religious follow the Pope. It seems to me that nature is monistic, and that humans exist to evolve the consciousness of nature. That's not the same thing as believing in God.

I guess by joining this forum I have finally chosen a side. I have finally come to admit that in my strange non-religious take on the universe, I am more comfortable in the company of atheists.

It's paradoxical, you know: the more you feel yourself becoming one with God, the more God ceases to exist.

I think you have your definitions mixed up. What Atheistic doctrines?

(March 20, 2009 at 4:45 am)leo-rcc Wrote: I think you have your definitions mixed up. What Atheistic doctrines?

Hi Edward,

I second that question ... I am not aware of any atheistic doctrines that exist in the real world. As far as I know they are a machination (if that's the word) of theism, probably invented to demonise us.

Kyu

Welcome Edward!!!

I do not understand what you mean by "atheist doctrine" exactly...I mean - what doctrines are you talking about?
Atheism itself is simply the absence of belief in God, nothing more, nothing less - by definition. Atheist is not a belief, atheism is not a belief SYSTEM. Atheism is an absence of a belief, an absence of a belief system. One who does not believe in God is an atheist.

If you do not believe in God then you are an atheist. So you could even believe in a Soul or an afterlife or that we are being conscious with nature and still be an atheist IF you do not believe in a "God" i.e a supernatural creator.
So you can be a spiritual atheist and believe in an afterlife or whatever even - for example. Simply because you're still an atheist because you don't believe in God.

I guess it depends how you define God but I at least...simply define God as the supernatural creator, designer, or the universe, etc.

Bruce Lee for example was an atheist because he didn't believe in God...when asked if he believed in God he replied "To be quite frank...I do not" - (I think I must have paraphrased a bit, IF only the punctuation) .
However I think Bruce Lee did believe in an afterlife..; another time when he was asked if he believed in God he replied "I believe in sleeping"...I wonder if he was referring to an afterlife or something...and I'm pretty sure he did believe in an afterlife I think...but I dunno...

Anyway if you don't believe in God...or any "gods" at all - then you are an atheist by definition. You could believe in many crazy things but its the not believing in God - i.e a supernatural creator - that still would make you an atheist by definition.

I assume you could even believe in Ghosts and an afterlife and lots of weird things etc, etc...but if you don't believe in God - you're still an atheist by definition.

If you believe nature or the universe itself is God...or "God is energy" and use God as a metaphor for the universe or nature itself etc...then I believe that would make you a pantheist...what Dawkins has called "sex-upped atheism"...also thought of as the "Einsteinian religion".

Because Einstein didn't actually believe in God...he just used God as a metaphor for the universe, nature, etc...
And Einstein described himself as: "a deeply religious non-believer" and he said "This is a somewhat new kind of religion".

Anyway sorry for the ramble lol...so what do you mean by atheist doctrines? What doctrines are you referring to?

...And more importantly: Welcome to the forums!!

EvF

You'll get used to EvidenceVsFaith; when he starts typing he has to type an essay

Yeah lol...I tried to cut it down...but I just couldn't help myself!
I needed to put it down...I found it interesting and hopefully important; at least to SOME degree of significance

EvF

(March 20, 2009 at 4:45 am)leo-rcc Wrote: I think you have your definitions mixed up. What Atheistic doctrines?

1. That the creation event can't be known beyond the microsecond after the big bang

2. That there is no real consciousness but only the illusion of consciousness (a blatant contradiction)

3. That chaos rules (mathematical sense, not Get Smart sense) There is no order but only the appearance of order.

4. There is no purpose to anything.

5. Evolution is possible via chance and environment only.

A lot of atheists adopt these views because for them there is either god/no-god and I think the truth is in-between.

A lot of atheists merely have faith that they are correct. They adopt atheism only to escape the confines of church-imposed morality. I am not a man of faith, not theistic faith, not atheistic faith.

Of course, I realize all of the members of this group may have nothing at all to do with my generalizations. I'm simply trying to answer the question quoted above.

(March 20, 2009 at 5:25 am)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: Hi Edward,

I second that question ... I am not aware of any atheistic doctrines that exist in the real world. As far as I know they are a machination (if that's the word) of theism, probably invented to demonise us.

Kyu

I hear you. Frankly, I enjoy the demonization!

(March 20, 2009 at 8:04 am)Tiberius Wrote: You'll get used to EvidenceVsFaith; when he starts typing he has to type an essay

That's cool. I look forward to the long ones!

(March 20, 2009 at 3:26 pm)Edward Wrote:

(March 20, 2009 at 4:45 am)leo-rcc Wrote: I think you have your definitions mixed up. What Atheistic doctrines?

1. That the creation event can't be known beyond the microsecond after the big bang

2. That there is no real consciousness but only the illusion of consciousness (a blatant contradiction)

3. That chaos rules (mathematical sense, not Get Smart sense) There is no order but only the appearance of order.

4. There is no purpose to anything.

5. Evolution is possible via chance and environment only.

What has got a disbelief in gods have to do with any of those?

Quote:A lot of atheists adopt these views because for them there is either god/no-god and I think the truth is in-between.

That doesn't make it a doctrine.

Quote:A lot of atheists merely have faith that they are correct. They adopt atheism only to escape the confines of church-imposed morality. I am not a man of faith, not theistic faith, not atheistic faith.

Of course, I realize all of the members of this group may have nothing at all to do with my generalizations. I'm simply trying to answer the question quoted above.

Well I'd say you are wrong. Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with world views or doctrines. It is just one thing, not believing in gods.

(March 20, 2009 at 6:34 am)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Welcome Edward!!!

I do not understand what you mean by "atheist doctrine" exactly...I mean - what doctrines are you talking about?
Atheism itself is simply the absence of belief in God, nothing more, nothing less - by definition. Atheist is not a belief, atheism is not a belief SYSTEM. Atheism is an absence of a belief, an absence of a belief system. One who does not believe in God is an atheist.

What is God? You say you don't believe in it, so what is it that you don't believe in?

Quote:So you can be a spiritual atheist and believe in an afterlife or whatever even - for example. Simply because you're still an atheist because you don't believe in God.

I guess it depends how you define God but I at least...simply define God as the supernatural creator, designer, or the universe, etc.

Bruce Lee for example was an atheist because he didn't believe in God...when asked if he believed in God he replied "To be quite frank...I do not" - (I think I must have paraphrased a bit, IF only the punctuation) .

However I think Bruce Lee did believe in an afterlife..; another time when he was asked if he believed in God he replied "I believe in sleeping"...I wonder if he was referring to an afterlife or something...and I'm pretty sure he did believe in an afterlife I think...but I dunno...

Anyway if you don't believe in God...or any "gods" at all - then you are an atheist by definition. You could believe in many crazy things but its the not believing in God - i.e a supernatural creator - that still would make you an atheist by definition.

OK, so in your opinion, what I hear you to be saying is that God, defined as a supernatural creator of the universe, does not exist. I'm not saying I disagree, but I'd like to see how far this rabbit hole goes. Would you say that God, defined as a supernatural creator of the universe cannot exist?

Quote:I assume you could even believe in Ghosts and an afterlife and lots of weird things etc, etc...but if you don't believe in God - you're still an atheist by definition.

If you believe nature or the universe itself is God...or "God is energy" and use God as a metaphor for the universe or nature itself etc...then I believe that would make you a pantheist...what Dawkins has called "sex-upped atheism"...also thought of as the "Einsteinian religion".

I believe all there is is nature. You can capitalize it (Nature) you can lower-case it (nature), none of that really matters. I think the most logical thing to say about reality is that ultimately, it is nature. Wouldn't that be atheism? There is no god, there is only nature. Or are you going to tell me that atheists don't believe nature exists?

Quote:Because Einstein didn't actually believe in God...he just used God as a metaphor for the universe, nature, etc...
And Einstein described himself as: "a deeply religious non-believer" and he said "This is a somewhat new kind of religion".

A lot of things are said to be quotes of Einstein's. I think about half of them actually are, but if he said the above as you qote him, then I pretty much agree.

Quote:Anyway sorry for the ramble lol...so what do you mean by atheist doctrines? What doctrines are you referring to?

Not at all. You ramble well.

Quote:...And more importantly: Welcome to the forums!!

Thanks!

(March 20, 2009 at 3:39 pm)leo-rcc Wrote: Atheism has absolutely nothing to do with world views or doctrines. It is just one thing, not believing in gods.

He's not wrong!!!

Ed mate, you're gonna have to stop believing the crap those damned theists have been filling your head with ... atheism isn't a philosophy, it's what you are when you stop believing in god or gods.

Kyu

---

(March 20, 2009 at 4:07 pm)Edward Wrote: What is God? You say you don't believe in it, so what is it that you don't believe in?

My answer would be nothing without good reason (and that always means solid, reproducible evidence).

(March 20, 2009 at 4:07 pm)Edward Wrote: OK, so in your opinion, what I hear you to be saying is that God, defined as a supernatural creator of the universe, does not exist. I'm not saying I disagree, but I'd like to see how far this rabbit hole goes. Would you say that God, defined as a supernatural creator of the universe cannot exist?

Might do, might not ... is there any verifiable evidence for one?

(March 20, 2009 at 4:07 pm)Edward Wrote: I believe all there is is nature. You can capitalize it (Nature) you can lower-case it (nature), none of that really matters. I think the most logical thing to say about reality is that ultimately, it is nature. Wouldn't that be atheism? There is no god, there is only nature. Or are you going to tell me that atheists don't believe nature exists?

Might do, might not ... what other things an atheist believes in is irrelevant to the fact that he/she is or is not an atheist. What do they call them, solipsists? Don't they believe nothing is real (including gods)? I guess they'd be atheists and not believe in nature.

(March 20, 2009 at 4:07 pm)Edward Wrote: A lot of things are said to be quotes of Einstein's. I think about half of them actually are, but if he said the above as you qote him, then I pretty much agree.

More typically theists quote him out of context.

Kyu