Intelligence is a Curse

[salty]

People who take the bible literally are too stupid for you to talk to? You defend logic and reason and yet you are so unreasonable in your passion to defend your views. You tell me that Christians should live by all of the bible, what does that even mean? Do you want us to invoke the laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus even though we have been delivered from these laws? Do you want us to police other Christians to make sure they're following the teachings? You sound like a child, "Why can't everyone get along?" You seem to miss the fact that I can only make decisions for myself and you make decisions for yourself, meaning your desire to see all of Christendom live by the whole bible is pretty unrealistic, which in turn means that nothing a Christian says will be enough to satisfy you. You are on a quest to make us acknowledge the bloodshed in the history of the bible. To you I say: what of it?

[KichigaiNeko]

People who take the bible literally are too stupid for you to talk to? You defend logic and reason and yet you are so unreasonable in your passion to defend your views. You tell me that Christians should live by all of the bible, what does that even mean? Do you want us to invoke the laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus even though we have been delivered from these laws? Do you want us to police other Christians to make sure they're following the teachings? You sound like a child, "Why can't everyone get along?" You seem to miss the fact that I can only make decisions for myself and you make decisions for yourself, meaning your desire to see all of Christendom live by the whole bible is pretty unrealistic, which in turn means that nothing a Christian says will be enough to satisfy you. You are on a quest to make us acknowledge the bloodshed in the history of the bible. To you I say: what of it?

Sorry salty...but just WHO are you ranting at??

[thesummerqueen]

What of it indeed?

People who take the Bible literally - as in actually believe the world was created in six days, and that whole lot of crap - are experiencing a massive cognitive dissonance that makes me worry about their sanity. It means they are ignoring all of the information we have obtained since that book was written down - since their stories were first oral traditions from people with goats and tents! - and sticking to iron age beliefs.

In my mind it seems easier for some people to "relinquish" their control of their own judgment over to "Jesus" rather than reasoning through things. Thus they look to the Bible for inspiration, and it's a shite book to do so because of the ability to cherry pick whatever information you want in order to justify yourself. This is what happens when you take a book of stories and invest it with divine meaning. Thus those atrocities mentioned are just as apt to be used for justification as Jesus' teachings are for love. I hate to burst yours or any other Christian's bubble, but it's perfectly feasible for you to put down the book of conflicting stories and be just as wonderful a person as you are simply by having compassion and empathy. I do not need to be told what the "right" thing to do is because god or Jesus told me so. In my mind, by telling people they are inherently sinners and then saying they have to give themselves over to Christ in order to avoid that sin, you create nothing but more sinners as they lose their belief that they have the power to take their life into their own hands. It's also part and parcel with misguided societal rules that became bound up specifically in Judaism itself, passed down to Christianity - values about sex and marriage, etc, that really have no bearing on our current society.

A woman telling Alei that intelligence is a curse is struggling against her own crisis of faith as she realizes discrepancies in the Bible. Humility is not the answer, and I rather find it insulting to listen to people say they only did what they accomplished through the power of God. Even on my best days struggling with the fact that I didn't believe, I couldn't bring myself to think that an all-powerful God gave a shit about our minute struggles (especially those assholes in sports who say they won because of Jesus). Also, if we were specifically created in his/her image, how is it in any way a point of pride to continually debase yourself against these god-given gifts? Rather, it would seem more productive to me for people to be more honest with themselves about their abilities and put them to use propping up others, sharing and sharing alike. No need to be falsely humble just to make other people feel better about themselves.

I rather think a lot of generalizations are being made here. Not all Christians loathe intelligence - in fact I know a number of rather emotionally and mentally stimulating people of different faiths. The distinction you have to make is whether or not they have that ridiculous CD working against them. Some people just feel better believing that in the end there is something watching out for them, even though they continue to power through their lives under their own steam. I've got no beef with those people, unless they want to get into an argument with me. I DO have beef with anyone of any faith who wants to say that knowledge is dangerous to God. If God created the world, then he/she created the evidence that we're now finding. Isn't that reasonable? Unless you want to assume a devil, which I have to admit I never do - such a concept never entered into mainstream Jewish thought. The only thing I can suss out of this is the concept that we shouldn't seek to be like god and know all things, because only god is capable of doing so. That still doesn't make any sense - if god is an all-powerful being, more than likely we will never as a human race know all there is to know and understand, so really it's more like God were one of us making sure we as ants never progressed past our little dirt hills.

All knowledge is worth having. No one should ever be scared of intelligence, and I further suspect that Alei's friend was suffering from a sense of insecurity realizing that her friend had intelligence she lacked - or rather, had never explored. I won't be so mean as to say she's not capable of it, but I will say her insistence on clinging to the idea that she musn't explore it in order to maintain her faith is reprehensible and sickening to the extreme.

[Erinome]

People who take the bible literally are too stupid for you to talk to? You defend logic and reason and yet you are so unreasonable in your passion to defend your views. You tell me that Christians should live by all of the bible, what does that even mean? Do you want us to invoke the laws of Deuteronomy and Leviticus even though we have been delivered from these laws? Do you want us to police other Christians to make sure they're following the teachings? You sound like a child, "Why can't everyone get along?" You seem to miss the fact that I can only make decisions for myself and you make decisions for yourself, meaning your desire to see all of Christendom live by the whole bible is pretty unrealistic, which in turn means that nothing a Christian says will be enough to satisfy you. You are on a quest to make us acknowledge the bloodshed in the history of the bible. To you I say: what of it?

Yes, people who take the bible seriously are incredibly daft. Even if it is just Genesis that is being taken literally, it's wholly ridiculous.

Tell me, what have I said that was unreasonable, and please do quote me. I am willing to consider if something I've said is unreasonable, but first I need to know what it was that I said specifically.

Yes. I think if Christians are going to defend and claim to live by the bible, then they should invoke all the laws in the bible. It's the word of God, right? At least Muslim nations aren't hypocritical. Allah says to put homosexuals and adulterers to death, and they do. The reason Christians selectively disregard Deuteronomy and Leviticus is because it's no longer a part of our culture. There is very little in the bible that is relevant to our modern culture because IT WAS WRITTEN THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO.
And, no, I do not want Christians to police other Christians to make sure they are following the teachings. I want Christians to stop putting stock into those teachings, and move along to the 21st century. We're in the information age now. Rejoice in that, I say.

I do not actually desire all Christians to live by the whole bible. That is unrealistic, but at the time it was written, it was law, and you either lived by the whole fucking thing or you were killed. What I desire is for Christians to put that disgusting, dark, and hate filled book of irrelevant bullshit down, and get a grip on TODAY"S reality.

Why should anything a Christian has to say satisfy me? Why would I drop all my knowledge and understanding, and be satisfied by the nonsense of someone who believes ancient, allegorical texts to be factual, when they have not a shred of evidence? Why should I accept testimonies of faith over evidence? They don't in a court of law, so why should I?

---

What of it indeed?

People who take the Bible literally - as in actually believe the world was created in six days, and that whole lot of crap - are experiencing a massive cognitive dissonance that makes me worry about their sanity. It means they are ignoring all of the information we have obtained since that book was written down - since their stories were first oral traditions from people with goats and tents! - and sticking to iron age beliefs.

In my mind it seems easier for some people to "relinquish" their control of their own judgment over to "Jesus" rather than reasoning through things. Thus they look to the Bible for inspiration, and it's a shite book to do so because of the ability to cherry pick whatever information you want in order to justify yourself. This is what happens when you take a book of stories and invest it with divine meaning. Thus those atrocities mentioned are just as apt to be used for justification as Jesus' teachings are for love. I hate to burst yours or any other Christian's bubble, but it's perfectly feasible for you to put down the book of conflicting stories and be just as wonderful a person as you are simply by having compassion and empathy. I do not need to be told what the "right" thing to do is because god or Jesus told me so. In my mind, by telling people they are inherently sinners and then saying they have to give themselves over to Christ in order to avoid that sin, you create nothing but more sinners as they lose their belief that they have the power to take their life into their own hands. It's also part and parcel with misguided societal rules that became bound up specifically in Judaism itself, passed down to Christianity - values about sex and marriage, etc, that really have no bearing on our current society.

A woman telling Alei that intelligence is a curse is struggling against her own crisis of faith as she realizes discrepancies in the Bible. Humility is not the answer, and I rather find it insulting to listen to people say they only did what they accomplished through the power of God. Even on my best days struggling with the fact that I didn't believe, I couldn't bring myself to think that an all-powerful God gave a shit about our minute struggles (especially those assholes in sports who say they won because of Jesus). Also, if we were specifically created in his/her image, how is it in any way a point of pride to continually debase yourself against these god-given gifts? Rather, it would seem more productive to me for people to be more honest with themselves about their abilities and put them to use propping up others, sharing and sharing alike. No need to be falsely humble just to make other people feel better about themselves.

I rather think a lot of generalizations are being made here. Not all Christians loathe intelligence - in fact I know a number of rather emotionally and mentally stimulating people of different faiths. The distinction you have to make is whether or not they have that ridiculous CD working against them. Some people just feel better believing that in the end there is something watching out for them, even though they continue to power through their lives under their own steam. I've got no beef with those people, unless they want to get into an argument with me. I DO have beef with anyone of any faith who wants to say that knowledge is dangerous to God. If God created the world, then he/she created the evidence that we're now finding. Isn't that reasonable? Unless you want to assume a devil, which I have to admit I never do - such a concept never entered into mainstream Jewish thought. The only thing I can suss out of this is the concept that we shouldn't seek to be like god and know all things, because only god is capable of doing so. That still doesn't make any sense - if god is an all-powerful being, more than likely we will never as a human race know all there is to know and understand, so really it's more like God were one of us making sure we as ants never progressed past our little dirt hills.

All knowledge is worth having. No one should ever be scared of intelligence, and I further suspect that Alei's friend was suffering from a sense of insecurity realizing that her friend had intelligence she lacked - or rather, had never explored. I won't be so mean as to say she's not capable of it, but I will say her insistence on clinging to the idea that she musn't explore it in order to maintain her faith is reprehensible and sickening to the extreme.

This is a very reasonable assessment. You're more patient than I am, I can tell, but I can't disagree with you a bit.

She isn't a stupid person, just scared, and I could tell. I really do think that most theists cling to their doctrines out of fear. I have converted one Christian to Atheism. We had a long talk about it, and instead of interrupting me, and putting his fingers in his ears while rocking back and forth, singing lalalalaah.. he listened. I explained everything, and by the time I was finished he had this look of pain in his eyes. I put my hands on his shoulders, looked him in the eye, and said "It's okay.". He burst into tears, hugged me, and thanked me for freeing him from his ignorance. He and I are still very good friends, and he is currently attending college and majoring in Biology. Before that night he had never questioned. He only believed.

[The Grand Nudger]

Genuine moral and ethical behaviour doesn't require motivational promises of reward, or inhumane sadistic threats of eternal torture. Don't think for one moment that I can't take the teachings of jesus alone (ignoring the entirety of the old testament) and build a dystopia. Even taking only the golden rule and "turning the cheek" one can present the believer with a cruel mirror image of his own faith. Perhaps the masochist should engage in sadism, and we should not defend ourselves or each other from the kind of aggressors who would destroy every bit of our way of life and indeed erase us from history itself if given the chance. Jesus is a firm believer in thought crimes, but paradoxically he does not believe in punishment for transgressions against the law (at least not by us lowly mortal sinners). Any system of law that suggests we punish those who are convicted of crimes, for example prison sentences for convictions of child molestation, are firmly against the doctrine of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". What exactly are we to make of the "if thy own eye offends thee" passage?

How does jesus himself measure up against these things? He doesn't seem to be the type to turn the other cheek, his enemies will be punished, eternally. How does he treat others? He heals the blind but not blindness itself. He doesn't seem to have cared much for amputees. He pays lip service to the unwashed but in the end we're either "with him or against him" and he spends more time telling us what will happen if we are against him than any other character in the entirety of the bible. No one is so enamored with the idea of hell as jesus. He is after all a demi-god and we are but lowly sinners, requiring his guidance. We are sheep, he is the shepherd. The capstone to this narrative? Vicarious redemption. The thought that a being may be scapegoated for the crimes of others and through brutal torture and subsequent execution somehow absolve them of the responsibility and consequences of their actions. All this without first asking if we wished for anyone to be tortured for what we may someday do. These are not the actions or thoughts of a just being. The narratives of the new testament are monstrous from start to finish and I, for one, am appalled that anyone would seek to paint them as anything other than fiction. What kind of person would wish for any of this to be true?

So you may be relieved that you are not held to the laws of the OT, I assume you feel that they are barbaric and wish to distance yourself from them as a christian. That jesus supposed authority is derived from this text seems to be a non issue for you. You reject duetoronomy and leviticus (and rightly so) but have on these very boards proclaimed your support for the xenocidal act of a global flood which thankfully never occurred. You may feel that you've squared the scriptures away with your modern notions of morality and ethics by cherry picking your way through the text, but you seem to have missed these things I mentioned above. Now I personally don't want anyone to live their life by the bible. Not one bit of it. I do however feel that people should realize what's in the bible, beyond their own naive and unjustifiably positive interpretations. You give approval for these things by your proclamation of faith in them. All of this without being able to offer a scrap of evidence that any of it is true, or even that god exists to begin with.

[thesummerqueen]

This is a very reasonable assessment. You're more patient than I am, I can tell, but I can't disagree with you a bit.

I let Rhythm swing the sword. I find people listen better when I come bearing biscuits and iced tea.

She isn't a stupid person, just scared, and I could tell. I really do think that most theists cling to their doctrines out of fear.

Remembering that helps keep patience. It's not easy to change what you've set your mind on when it comes to a lot of basic things - why would a worldview be any easier? I have to admit I have no talent for helping in this arena and thus stay away from it because it's hard to vocalize the rather extreme lack of need I have for there to be some overwhelming purpose outside of our atmosphere.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'll swing it gladly. Every objection to christianity that we might choose to leverage was proposed before the new testament was even written. If people were going to let this sick little cult go after being presented with a smile and reasoned arguments they would have done so over a thousand years ago. It appeals to something within us that is ugly and completely deplorable, but nonetheless extremely powerful. I'd go so far as to say that most of us here, atheists included, would love to be absolved of whatever we feel our misdeeds have been. The difference between us and them is that we know they can't be, and that we must face them in order to better ourselves personally, and collectively. So, when someone responds to the question of atrocities with "what of it", I'm going to give them an earful. All we have to do to make it absolutely certain that we keep repeating this bullshit is ignore it, or pretend that it doesn't really matter.

[searchingforanswers]

Its a curse from Satan. At leasts that what my sunday school teachers told me and I believed it for a while. Growing up as a theist your taught that without a doubt its true. Any doubts, no matter how logical are viewed as an attack from Satan. And then its a virtue to say "hey, satan's trying to trick me by actually making sense! Im following jesus anyway to show him how much faith I have." In all honestly, I guarantee thats what goes through the head of most christians. It went through mine. It all comes down to faith. Christians cant prove the bible but damn do they believe it. You can give all the evidence and intellegient reasoning you want and most christians will look at it and still have faith. I did for the longest.

[Erinome]

Genuine moral end ethical behaviour doesn't require motivational promises of reward, or inhumane sadistic threats of eternal torture. Don't think for one moment that I can't take the teachings of jesus alone (ignoring the entirety of the old testament) and build a dystopia. Even taking only the golden rule and "turning the cheek" one can present the believer with a cruel mirror image of his own faith. Perhaps the masochist should engage in sadism, and we should not defend ourselves or each other from the kind of aggressors who would destroy every bit of our way of life and indeed erase us from history itself if given the chance. Jesus is a firm believer in thought crimes, but paradoxically he does not believe in punishment for transgressions against the law. Any system of law that suggests we punish those who are convicted of crimes, for example prison sentences for convictions of child molestation, are firmly against the doctrine of "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". What exactly are we to make of the "if thy own eye offends thee" passage? How does jesus himself measure up against these things? He doesn't seem to be the type to turn the other cheek, his enemies will be punished, eternally. How does he treat others? He heals the blind but not blindness itself. He doesn't seem to have cared much for amputees. He pays lip service to the unwashed but in the end we're either "with him or against him" and he spends more time telling us what will happen if we are against him than any other character in the entirety of the bible. No one is so enamored with the idea of hell as jesus. He is after all a demi-god and we are but lowly sinners, requiring his guidance. We are sheep, he is the shepherd. The capstone to this narrative? Vicarious redemption. The thought that a being may be scapegoated for the crimes of others and through brutal torture and subsequent execution somehow absolve them of the responsibility and consequences of their actions. All this without first asking if we wished for anyone to be tortured for what we may someday do. These are not the actions or thoughts of a just being. The narratives of the new testament are monstrous from start to finish and I, for one, am appalled that anyone would seek to paint them as anything other than fiction. What kind of person would wish for any of this to be true?

So you may be relieved that you are not held to the laws of the OT, I assume you feel that they are barbaric and wish to distance yourself from them as a christian. That jesus supposed authority is derived from this text seems to be a non issue for you. You reject duetoronomy and leviticus (and rightly so) but have on these very boards proclaimed your support for the xenocidal act of a global flood which thankfully never occurred. You may feel that you've squared the scriptures away with your modern notions of morality and ethics by cherry picking your way through the text, but you seem to have missed these things I mentioned above.

That was beautifully said, Rhythm. I am happy to know your very wise and insightful binary incarnation. There are at least a million reasons that the bible should be utterly shunned, and I have found that not a single one is less or more important than the other.

I'm pissed off, personally, that my children and I have to live in an era where the majority think that Jesus will come back in their lifetime for the rapture. This sort of thinking devastates the progression of this sooty footed society toward a mindset of preservation and survival for the human race. So many contributing to the destruction of the planet ecologically because, hey, Jesus gonna come back some time in the next 30 somthin' years so who gives a fuck? That's just one way the completely imagined/fabricated story of the rapture sets the human race up for annihilation. What about the nukes? What country will be the first to get their hands on one, and decide to use it on the people who don't believe in the same mythical omniscient being(s) that they do? Why should Rhythm and I have to lose the only lives we are ever going to get prematurely, because of that bullshit? Once one goes off, there will be more, and we're all just gonna blow each other up because of unfounded, unreasonable claims that some men made a few thousand years ago. All while the middle aged yellow dwarf star whose life gives us life has a good 2 or 3 billion years worth of hydrogen to burn before the radiation gets us.

And the masses are focused on this event:


Here's a reality check, from Mars.


Our planet, our existence, everything is a freak of nature. Even straight people.

[thesummerqueen]

I'll swing it gladly. Every objection to christianity that we might choose to leverage was proposed before the new testament was even written. If people were going to let this sick little cult go after being presented with a smile and reasoned arguments they would have done so over a thousand years ago.

On what grounds?

This cult grew up around a group of people seeking to explain why they were downtrodden and oppressed, and wanting some sort of retribution towards people more powerful than them.

NOW I object to them clinging to such beliefs, because there is more free knowledge, more democracy and more access than those people before the NT could possibly even conceive.