Intelligence is a Curse

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Does this woman's habit of calling everybody her " friend " not get tedious?

Yeah,it's similar to that annoying 16y yr old check out girl calling me "dear"and asking " how are WE today?" I haven't said anything nasty to her yet,and I'd prefer not,as it would probably hurt her feelings and after all, I'm only mildly annoyed..

Salty is another matter entirely;A bloody minded adult who has inflicted herself on an atheist forum to argue her drivel, ad nauseum et ad infinitum.She's become quite tedious.

[Ryft]

Last night I had a very passionate religious debate with a Christian. She was, of course, a creationist who argued (when I showed her clear evidence of evolution, etc.) that she could no longer look at the evidence because it would anger Jesus. She went on to claim that being an intelligent person is a "curse." Is this where we are, Christians? Really?

You are not the only person here who displays a curious inability to distinguish between "Christian" and "fundamentalist young-earth creationist," investing your professed intelligence in the contorted mental gymnastics of equating the latter with the former, as if to be a Christian is to be a fundamentalist young-earth creationist. Perhaps it has something to do with where you live, such that these fundamentalists are typical of the Christians you encounter. That is merely a hunch. Nonetheless, the facts of reality defy your conflation; given the two billion or so Christians throughout the world, those fundamentalists actually constitute a minority—albeit an admittedly vocal one. The vast majority of Christians are neither young-earth creationists nor phronemophobic fundamentalists, so it is quite naive of you to expect us to answer for that strange group (who we likewise debate and labor to educate). Do try to distinguish with whom you have these issues, and please stop pretending they represent all two billion of us.

Yes, people who take the Bible seriously are incredibly daft.

Because you say so? Oh please. I am someone who takes the Bible seriously. Please feel free to peruse any of my in-depth posts and demonstrate how I am stupid or a simpleton.

Tell me, what have I said that was unreasonable, and please do quote me.

No problem. See your above comment.

I think if Christians are going to defend and claim to live by the Bible, then they should invoke all the laws in the Bible.

I see. Christians are supposed to toss biblical exegesis out the window if they are going to defend and claim to live by the Bible. And this makes sense to you? Amazing.

The reason Christians selectively disregard Deuteronomy and Leviticus is because it's no longer a part of our culture.

Nice claim. Now support it with cited evidence.

She isn't a stupid person ...

And yet you said, "People who take the Bible seriously are incredibly daft."

These two statements are mutually exclusive. It will be interesting to observe how you clear up this contradiction.

I have converted one Christian to Atheism. We had a long talk ...

I have converted one Atheist to Christianity. We had a long talk about it, and instead of interrupting me and putting her fingers in her ears while rocking back and forth singing, "Lalalalaah," she listened. I explained everything, and by the time I was finished she had this look of pain in her eyes. I put my hands on her shoulders, looked her in the eye and said, "It's okay." She burst into tears, hugged me, and thanked me for freeing her from her ignorance. She and I are still very good friends, and she is currently attending college and majoring in biology. Before that night she had never questioned. She only believed.

(Something tells me you are unlikely to get the point I just made here.)

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Predestined: People who are (predestined to come to Christ) born and will accept Christ in their lifetime, serving him as the Lord ordained for them to serve.

Does God predestine people to come to Christ, as you say here, or does he predestine them "to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brethren," as Scripture says (Rom 8:29; cf. Eph 1:5)?

Freewill: People who are born with the ability to choose to come to Christ from their own desire to know him.

And who is born with the ability to choose to come to Christ from their own desire to know him? Please support your answer with biblical text.

What do you lose by following the teachings of Christ? I assert: you lose nothing, instead you gain everything.

Scripture asserts quite the opposite: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" (Mat 7:21-23). If one is not saved in Christ, then one loses everything—and that salvation is not gained by good works.

"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior" (Titus 3:4-6). "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph 2:8-9). "A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. ... I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" (Gal 2:16, 21). And so on. Remember, "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so" (Rom 8:7).

As Donald Fortner once said, "The surest thing that can be said about good works is this: those who think they have them do not, and those who perform them are fully convinced that they haven't."

[Faith No More]

I see. Christians are supposed to toss biblical exegesis out the window if they are going to defend and claim to live by the Bible. And this makes sense to you? Amazing.

Could you elaborate further on what you meant here?

[tackattack]

I believe he was simply asserting that literal line for line compliance without using any reading comprehension skills (ie. exegesis, eigesis, context, translation, etc.) at all is quite ludicrous on any topic.

[Erinome]

You are not the only person here who displays a curious inability to distinguish between "Christian" and "fundamentalist young-earth creationist," investing your professed intelligence in the contorted mental gymnastics of equating the latter with the former, as if to be a Christian is to be a fundamentalist young-earth creationist. Perhaps it has something to do with where you live, such that these fundamentalists are typical of the Christians you encounter. That is merely a hunch. Nonetheless, the facts of reality defy your conflation; given the two billion or so Christians throughout the world, those fundamentalists actually constitute a minority—albeit an admittedly vocal one. The vast majority of Christians are neither young-earth creationists nor phronemophobic fundamentalists, so it is quite naive of you to expect us to answer for that strange group (who we likewise debate and labor to educate). Do try to distinguish with whom you have these issues, and please stop pretending they represent all two billion of us.

fundamentalist young earth creationists a minority? Where are you from? They're everywhere. It's unfortunate.

I think if Christians are going to defend and claim to live by the Bible, then they should invoke all the laws in the Bible.

I see. Christians are supposed to toss biblical exegesis out the window if they are going to defend and claim to live by the Bible. And this makes sense to you? Amazing.

That statement was in regards to cherry pickers. I was denoting hypocrisy.

The reason Christians selectively disregard Deuteronomy and Leviticus is because it's no longer a part of our culture.

Nice claim. Now support it with cited evidence.

Have you read them? If so, I really don't understand why you need evidence. Do they think it's perfectly fine to kill whole towns full of men, women, and children where you're from.. in the name of god?

She isn't a stupid person ...

And yet you said, "People who take the Bible seriously are incredibly daft."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/daft

I was using the word 'daft' in the context "mad, insane". Plenty of not stupid people are crazy.

These two statements are mutually exclusive. It will be interesting to observe how you clear up this contradiction.

It wasn't terribly difficult since I knew what I was talking about in the first place.

(Something tells me you are unlikely to get the point I just made here.)

I'm sure whatever the inane point, it was inspired by Jesus. I'm sure he is so proud of you.. wherever he is.



I don't think you're stupid either. You just have an invisible friend. The whole idea seems a little daft to me.

[The Grand Nudger]

YEC are christian. No need to distinguish between the two (except to place them in the taxa of credulity). Credit where it's due, I applaud you for deciding not to put saddles on sauropods.

Tack, find yourself doing exegesis on textbooks often? It's strange that the creator is such a poor communicator, wonder why that is?

[thesummerqueen]

I believe he was simply asserting that literal line for line compliance without using any reading comprehension skills (ie. exegesis, eigesis, context, translation, etc.) at all is quite ludicrous on any topic.

Isn't comprehension and context exactly why we say this is ludicrous to begin with?

And why does he believe that? Because he read it in the Old Testament... which is the book of my people: the Jewish people. And that book wasn't good enough for you Christians...was it? You went, "No! We've got a better book! With a better character! You're gonna love him!" And you called your book "new" and said our book was "old"! And yet every Sunday I turn on the television set and there's a priest or a pastor reading from my book! And interpreting it, and their interpretations, I have to tell you, are usually wrong.

It's not their fault... 'cause it's not their book. You never see a rabbi on T.V. interpreting the New Testament, do you?

[salty]

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Last night I had a very passionate religious debate with a Christian. She was, of course, a creationist who argued (when I showed her clear evidence of evolution, etc.) that she could no longer look at the evidence because it would anger Jesus. She went on to claim that being an intelligent person is a "curse." Is this where we are, Christians? Really?

You are not the only person here who displays a curious inability to distinguish between "Christian" and "fundamentalist young-earth creationist," investing your professed intelligence in the contorted mental gymnastics of equating the latter with the former, as if to be a Christian is to be a fundamentalist young-earth creationist. Perhaps it has something to do with where you live, such that these fundamentalists are typical of the Christians you encounter. That is merely a hunch. Nonetheless, the facts of reality defy your conflation; given the two billion or so Christians throughout the world, those fundamentalists actually constitute a minority—albeit an admittedly vocal one. The vast majority of Christians are neither young-earth creationists nor phronemophobic fundamentalists, so it is quite naive of you to expect us to answer for that strange group (who we likewise debate and labor to educate). Do try to distinguish with whom you have these issues, and please stop pretending they represent all two billion of us.

Yes, people who take the Bible seriously are incredibly daft.

Because you say so? Oh please. I am someone who takes the Bible seriously. Please feel free to peruse any of my in-depth posts and demonstrate how I am stupid or a simpleton.

Tell me, what have I said that was unreasonable, and please do quote me.

No problem. See your above comment.

I think if Christians are going to defend and claim to live by the Bible, then they should invoke all the laws in the Bible.

I see. Christians are supposed to toss biblical exegesis out the window if they are going to defend and claim to live by the Bible. And this makes sense to you? Amazing.

The reason Christians selectively disregard Deuteronomy and Leviticus is because it's no longer a part of our culture.

Nice claim. Now support it with cited evidence.

She isn't a stupid person ...

And yet you said, "People who take the Bible seriously are incredibly daft."

These two statements are mutually exclusive. It will be interesting to observe how you clear up this contradiction.

I have converted one Christian to Atheism. We had a long talk ...

I have converted one Atheist to Christianity. We had a long talk about it, and instead of interrupting me and putting her fingers in her ears while rocking back and forth singing, "Lalalalaah," she listened. I explained everything, and by the time I was finished she had this look of pain in her eyes. I put my hands on her shoulders, looked her in the eye and said, "It's okay." She burst into tears, hugged me, and thanked me for freeing her from her ignorance. She and I are still very good friends, and she is currently attending college and majoring in biology. Before that night she had never questioned. She only believed.

(Something tells me you are unlikely to get the point I just made here.)

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Predestined: People who are (predestined to come to Christ) born and will accept Christ in their lifetime, serving him as the Lord ordained for them to serve.

Does God predestine people to come to Christ, as you say here, or does he predestine them "to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brethren," as Scripture says (Rom 8:29; cf. Eph 1:5)?

Freewill: People who are born with the ability to choose to come to Christ from their own desire to know him.

And who is born with the ability to choose to come to Christ from their own desire to know him? Please support your answer with biblical text.

What do you lose by following the teachings of Christ? I assert: you lose nothing, instead you gain everything.

Scripture asserts quite the opposite: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" (Mat 7:21-23). If one is not saved in Christ, then one loses everything—and that salvation is not gained by good works.

"But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior" (Titus 3:4-6). "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast" (Eph 2:8-9). "A man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. ... I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" (Gal 2:16, 21). And so on. Remember, "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so" (Rom 8:7).

As Donald Fortner once said, "The surest thing that can be said about good works is this: those who think they have them do not, and those who perform them are fully convinced that they haven't."

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Thank you for confronting me. I will be sure to show you what I meant by "following the teachings of Christ" through Biblical text.

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I understand that I need to answer the questions that have been asked of me by Rhythm & El Dinero. I will respond in another thread when I have done this.

[The Grand Nudger]

Exactly the issue, "what you meant by following the teachings of christ." You're the one investing these teachings with a meaning. This is why those teachings vary between denominations (of which there are 38,000) and can lead to anything ranging from your interpretation to my own parody. Again, when all of you have decided exactly what the teachings of the bible are the discussion will be more productive. As it stands each of you is asserting an opinion as fact, and none of you have provided any evidence for the existence of god in the first place. It's not exactly unlike arguing over whether love spells are more effective with white candles or red candles.

[salty]

Predestined: People who are (predestined to come to Christ) born and will accept Christ in their lifetime, serving him as the Lord ordained for them to serve.

Does God predestine people to come to Christ, as you say here, or does he predestine them "to be conformed to the image of his Son, that his Son would be the firstborn among many brethren," as Scripture says (Rom 8:29; cf. Eph 1:5)?

Hm. I'm not sure how to respond to this, I think what I'm saying is aligned with both Romans & Ephesians. In Ephesians it says that he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.

Those who are predestined to come to the Lord will be seeking to live according God's pleasure and will, sometimes they will be lost (Josh McDowell), sometimes they will be ignorant (Lee Strobel), but when the Lord makes himself known the predestined will come and they will follow hard. In Romans it says that those God foreknew are predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, which denotes an intense devotion to seeking the Lord and following his will for the time they are given on the earth, like God's son.

I believe that people with freewill are people that come to the Lord through faith and either unlock their calling and move forward in Christ (learning they are predestined) or become somewhat stagnant, but hold to the Truth of Jesus as their Savior and the one to whom they will answer.

In my eyes fighting about whether someone is predestined to come or comes by freewill, is like fighting over the color of a boat while drowning. I'd rather see people get into the boat (believe) and work on rowing themselves (building up Biblically) in the direction of the Lord (toward their mission).

Freewill: People who are born with the ability to choose to come to Christ from their own desire to know him.

And who is born with the ability to choose to come to Christ from their own desire to know him? Please support your answer with biblical text.

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened." Matthew 7:7-8 NIV

There are people that want to know God, but they don't know who he is, so they seek him. I used my freewill to seek God (with a willing heart to follow if he answered my call) and I found him and as I dive deeper, I find that I was predestined to know him because his calling on my life is becoming clearer as I get closer. This supports what Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Fater who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day." Matt 6:44 NIV

These two ideas (as I have defined them) go hand and hand, that's why Christians shouldn't argue over whether they are one or the other, they should seek God's will for their lives.

Scripture asserts quite the opposite: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'" (Mat 7:21-23). If one is not saved in Christ, then one loses everything—and that salvation is not gained by good works.

The teachings of Jesus Christ do not push men to perform good works as an avenue for salvation, nor does it direct men's faith and devotion to anyone else. When I ask 'What do you lose by following the teachings of Christ?' I don't mean a haphazard devotion that depends on every whim of pastors world wide that speak for Christ. I mean following Christ based on what he has said, himself.

Right before the portion of Matthew that you quoted above, Jesus says, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Matt 7:21 NIV

And how does one do the will of the Father? "It is as the Prophets say, 'They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me[Jesus]. No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. I [Jesus] am the bread of life." John 6:45-48 NIV

After this Jesus goes on to explain that anyone who accepts the bread will not die, instead they will live forever. Again, what do you have to lose by following the teachings of Christ? According to the Bible you have lost nothing, but gained eternity.

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I want to add for anyone reading that Ryft quoted Matt 7:22-23.