Ask the Christian

[BloodyHeretic]

What's your analogy Ace?

[Ace Otana]

What's your analogy Ace?

I've used the paper airplane analogy because it's easy to understand (even for a theist).

Lets say I can build a paper airplane that will fly perfectly to the other side of the room and land on the table. It is in fact what I want it to do. I know it will land perfectly on the table. Now lets say I'm all knowing, and I design a paper airplane with a mind of it's own and it went against my wishes, being all knowing I knew it would but I went ahead with it's design and creation. Now I decide to punish it for all eternity for not doing what I wanted it to do, despite the fact that I knew it would because that's how I designed it. Would that be rational or fair?
Point is, I'm punishing my creation for doing what I designed it to do. I knew it would happen. So I cannot blame my creation.

Another one would be - Say I built a flying robot with the ability to think for itself and I gave it weapons for which it had the option of using. Now I know it can and may very well use it's weapons to kill someone, but I still build it and let it fly. Say it went off and killed someone. Who would you blame, me the designer and creator or my creation for which was only doing what I gave it the ability to do? What would make it worse is if I was all knowing, since I would of known it would happen but allowed it to anyway. It would make even less sense if I punished it even though I could of prevented it and so thus the punishment wouldn't be required.

Same applies to god. He should know better.

[FutureAndAHope]

and knew that most of the human race would end up in hell

Every one is entitled to their own oppinion on this. But personally I don't agree with the train of thought that says that most people will end up in hell. The reason I say this is God is love, we know what love is love is not pretense. We are going to spend eternity with a loving God not a vindictive God. Jesus talked about unlimited forgiveness in this age (77x7). It also says "God does not desire that any perish but all come to repentance", this mirrors the OT where God says he "Does not delight in the death of the wicked...but rather they turn and live". So this is all about desire and when some one has a desire they will fulfil their desire according to their nature, which is one of love. Sin it's self can not be a big issue with God, I mean he let David live after comitting adultery and murder, and did not send him to hell for it. So God is also forgiving.

But yes there is a hell. The bible also says there are many who are on their way there, but in my opinion, it does ot mean many will end up there. Rather that when one is saved their way becomes the narrow way. They confine themselves to a Godly style of living. Every one who currently does not know God have a very broard set of values, which ultimately if continued in would lead to destruction.

But for me I don't believe God has multiple personalities, I believe he is a loving God. As such is more forgiving than judgmental. Infact he was only really judgmental to people who were idol worshipers , i.e. sacrificed their children to false gods, or were overly religious, and wanted to stone people, or get tem to follow a whole heap of strict laws they had added to the word of God. I think God is very reasonable in my opinion.

[frankiej]

But by the rules of the book you live by, the majority of people would go to hell.

[fr0d0]

I would rather hope that someone's reasoning would not be this... I would hope that they wouldn't cheat because they have a family to care for... A child shouldn't have to grow up in a broken home... God never has to come into the equation.

Separation would be the same thing in this instance.

They always seem to worm their way out of everything... I think it is about time that we catch one, and tie them up. We shall force the answers out!

Here, fr0d0, fr0d0, fr0d0... Here boy!

I've answered before, and it's not my thread, but sure I don't mind... one more time...

Ace... you assume this creation isn't as intended and that this creator is the one doing the choosing. We choose death over life, and then blame him. Sounds rich.

"and knew that most of the human race would end up in hell"
That's not my belief. Well, it would seem that most people would; but I believe that in the fullness of time, God wins. The undeniable truth ends up being accepted. Punishment meets the crime. If you want it. The human lifetime is insignificant against eternity. In that time frame everyone will have worked it out and have inflicted enough pain on themselves. God wins.

"he knew before we existed, that we would not to believe" ...in our human/ mortal lifetime

[frankiej]

Separation would be the same thing in this instance.

But you said a separation from God causes misery... I was saying that it isn't morally wrong because God is involved.

So I don't really know what you mean by the "same thing".

[BloodyHeretic]

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Matthew 7:13

And sensible civil engineer builds a broad road to carry more traffic than a narrow road. How many people are christians in the world today? How many aren't? There will be more people in hell, according to the bible. There's no justice to it. If you believe otherwise, that's just because you're uncomfortable with the fact god's a bastard.

[Ace Otana]

Ace... you assume this creation isn't as intended and that this creator is the one doing the choosing. We choose death over life, and then blame him. Sounds rich.

Intended or not, you cannot avoid it. God is responsible because he knew all that would happen. His designs, his creation and he knows all. If I go to hell, it's his fault. I am me, I'm not going to pretend to be someone I'm not.

Besides, I don't remember choosing death over life.

[fr0d0]

Besides, I don't remember choosing death over life.

Well that's the question Ace

---

Separation would be the same thing in this instance.

But you said a separation from God causes misery... I was saying that it isn't morally wrong because God is involved.

So I don't really know what you mean by the "same thing".

You cited the practical repercussions. My scope was wider. Both results are self destructive, mine might go further.

[The Grand Nudger]

So now we choose? I thought that things were predestined? Frodo works in mysterious ways. See, "choice" or "free will" and predestination (or precognition) are mutually exclusive concepts.

The future is either written, or it is not.