Ask the Christian

[downbeatplumb]

That is why we have a thing called grace, or God's character of favour. Grace is the idea that we all sin, we all fall short of the rules. It is not about rules it is realising we can all have a relationship with God that when we get closer to him our sin gets less. He empowers people to stop sinning becase we know his rules help us. As an example drinking might be fun for some people, but I know of a friend who was hit by a car becase he got so drunk, broke ribs and all. So for me I don't drink at all becase I know it can cause harm. So God's rule about drinking is to keep people from harmful things. God is not about rules, you must keep my rules or else I will destroy you, rather he is about showing us the rules are to benifit us, and help us. He actually does really care about peoples walfare, believe it or not.

Wasnt jesus supposed to have supplied the alcohol at a wedding?
This seems to be encouraging drinking does it not.

http://www.biblica.com/bibles/chapter/?v...ersion=niv

John 2:1-11 NIV

1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[b]

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine

Fuck me! thats at least 120 gallons of wine !

[Welsh cake]

We are going to spend eternity with a loving God not a vindictive God. Jesus talked about unlimited forgiveness in this age (77x7). It also says "God does not desire that any perish but all come to repentance", this mirrors the OT where God says he "Does not delight in the death of the wicked...but rather they turn and live".

And those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit also get unlimited forgiveness? Oh wait, of course not, god concepts created by man have silly and arbitrary rules that must be obeyed regardless. If it truly wanted "love", it wouldn't have set up a reality where it ultimately gets its plans thwarted by the will of half-arsed men. Some all-powerful (and oddly male) tribal god you got there.

But yes there is a hell.

*Loving god concept gets thrown out the window*

Its remarkable how you dismantle your arguments faster than I ever could.

That's not my belief. Well, it would seem that most people would; but I believe that in the fullness of time, God wins. The undeniable truth ends up being accepted. Punishment meets the crime. If you want it. The human lifetime is insignificant against eternity. In that time frame everyone will have worked it out and have inflicted enough pain on themselves. God wins.

By punishing us until we turn back to this monster? Really? That's not love Frodo.

Do you force yourself onto people who don't want anything to do with you too?

It is not about rules it is realising we can all have a relationship with God that when we get closer to him our sin gets less.

Even if he were proven to exist why would we want to?

I find the concept utterly repugnant, no matter which way you 'advertise' it.

[Castle]

That is why we have a thing called grace, or God's character of favour. Grace is the idea that we all sin, we all fall short of the rules. It is not about rules it is realising we can all have a relationship with God that when we get closer to him our sin gets less. He empowers people to stop sinning becase we know his rules help us. As an example drinking might be fun for some people, but I know of a friend who was hit by a car becase he got so drunk, broke ribs and all. So for me I don't drink at all becase I know it can cause harm. So God's rule about drinking is to keep people from harmful things. God is not about rules, you must keep my rules or else I will destroy you, rather he is about showing us the rules are to benifit us, and help us. He actually does really care about peoples walfare, believe it or not.

Wasnt jesus supposed to have supplied the alcohol at a wedding?
This seems to be encouraging drinking does it not.

http://www.biblica.com/bibles/chapter/?v...ersion=niv

John 2:1-11 NIV

1 On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus’ mother was there, 2 and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine was gone, Jesus’ mother said to him, “They have no more wine.”

4 “Woman,[a] why do you involve me?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”

5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[b]

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”

They did so, 9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine

Fuck me! thats at least 120 gallons of wine !

Jesus got married too, must have been a party, me oh my

[fr0d0]

@ WC:
God forgives you unconditionally: that's not love?

God forces you??
Do you not have a choice then?

If you don't have a choice, then why don't you believe?
If you do have a choice, he obviously isn't forcing you.

[Epimethean]

LOL, fr0d0. There's a difference between choice and extortion.

[frankiej]

You cited the practical repercussions. My scope was wider. Both results are self destructive, mine might go further.

The practical repercussions are the main thing that people should focus on... Losing your family is far more important than dealing with your daddy kins... And more realistic...

You can't go around acting out of what ifs... Especially when it deals with other peoples lives.

[fr0d0]

The practical repercussions should be your foremost concenrn. Absolutely. Belief should lead you to that. The opposite would be selfishness.

[FutureAndAHope]

Fuck me! thats at least 120 gallons of wine

Yes but was it alchaholic, the fact is that the word wine in the greek, can mean grape juice. The bible specifically else where condemns drunkeness, for the very reason I stated before, it can have negative effects on some poeple leading to sexual sin, voilence/aggressive tendencies, injury. Only a blind person could say drunkenes is 100% harmless.

[Jackalope]

Fat chance Dar, it was one of the questions nobody ever tried to answer on my way to becoming an atheist. It's always fun to watch them squirm though!

The most mind-boggling stupid answer I received to that question was that "God created you in the hope you would come to him of free will."

(Facepalm)

Yeah, but if he's the omni-max god xtians claim him to be, he KNEW that I wouldn't, and that he would cast me into hell.

How can an omni- god hope for something he has to know will never happen?

The only conclusion I'm able to draw is that "god" cannot be omniscient, omni-benevolent, omnipotent, and have given humanity free will. It's a logical impossibility.

---

As only God has knowledge of our destiny, I hope you can see that our choice is unhindered.

Your god is supposedly omniscient, as you allude to here, as well as omnipotent.

Let's look at a hypothetical. I'm walking down a path. I reach a fork in the path. I can choose to stop where I am, turn around and go back, take the right fork, or take the left fork.

As your god is omniscient, he has known for all eternity that I will take the left path. If your god is also omnipotent, it is a logical impossibility that I can take any action that would invalidate his omniscience.

Am I really free to make a choice here?

P.S. The only logical answer is "No".

[lucent]

The reason no one could answer this question for you is because most Christians don't understand much about the foreknowledge of God. It is sad no one even tried while you were in doubt.

God does not have necessarily have absolute foreknowledge in all things. It isn't because He isn't capable of creating a world in which He does have absolute foreknowledge. It's because He sovereignly decided to create a world with human beings who have genuine free will. To do otherwise would be to create mere robots. Free will must be genuine because in any other case, love would simply be a programmed response. Love isn't love without free will.

Genesis 22:12

“Do not lay a hand on the boy,” he said. “Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son.”

As you can see, God did not absolutely know how Abraham would react before He tested Him.

In the bible, you can see that God frequently changes His mind or alters His plans according to how people behave. For instance, God stated the fourth generation of Israelites would enter the promised land..but it was actually the fifth generation, due to disobedience. This means that we have genuine choices which lead to novel outcomes.

This isn't to say that certain things aren't set in stone, or left to chance. For instance, that He has set a date to judge the world. Basically, He foreknows as much as He sees fit, and leaves open as much as can be left open.

So, our choices do matter. God has given us genuine free will to determine our course. He has sacrificed some of His sovereignty for our sake, to give us a real life with real choice.

I suggest "God of the possible" by Gregory A. Boyd and also "The God who Risks" by John Sanders for a much more in depth analysis of this subject.

“…the classical tradition became misguided when, under the influence of Hellenistic philosophy, it defined God’s perfection in static, timeless terms…Given this definition of divine perfection, there was no way to conceive of God as entertaining real possibilities…It followed for classical theology that reality must be eternally and exhaustively settled…This view is misguided on biblical, theological, and practical grounds…God is the God of the possible and not simply a God of eternally static certainties. Practically, a God of eternally static certainties is incapable of interacting with humans in a relevant way. The God of the possible, by contrast, is a God who can work with us to truly change what might have been to what should be.”

"God can and does predetermine and foreknow whatever he wants to about the future. Indeed, God is so confident in his sovereignty that he does not need to micromanage everything. He could if he wanted to, but this would demean his sovereignty. So he chooses to leave some of the future open to possibilities, allowing them to be resolved by free agents. It takes a greater God to steer a world populated with free agents than it does to steer a world of preprogrammed automatons…The God of the possible creates the “Choose Your Own Adventure” structure of world history and of our lives, within which the possibilities of human free choice are actualized…A God who knows all possibilities, experiences novelty, and is willing to engage in an appropriate element of risk is more exalted than a God who faces an eternally settled future"

Fat chance Dar, it was one of the questions nobody ever tried to answer on my way to becoming an atheist. It's always fun to watch them squirm though!