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RE: Death Penalty
June 13, 2009 at 4:33 pm
@ Samson: The thing is though - revenge does no good but perhaps satisfy ones own vengeful feelings when it's carried out. And sometimes they're not even satisfied - it could just go on.
And most importantly: What practical good does it do? 'Disposing of' is one thing - but I don't see why suffering would need to come into it if you're getting rid of them either way? Just sounds like satisfying ones own vengeful feelings to me.
IMO, revenge--in and of itself--never does any good. All it can do is satisfy itself - and potentially it can do a lot worse. I think vengeance is a very destructive emotion, it does nothing but tries to satisfy its own anger.
You can dispose of 'problems' without having to go further with 'revenge'.
At least that's the way I see it.
I think the most one can reasonably do is go about it like 'putting a rabid dog down' - I understand why one might want to go further...but I don't think one should - revenge can only make things worse because it's self-feeding...the best it can do is destroy itself through carrying out its wrath - but my whole point is (to make it very clear) that: vengeance is a very destructive emotion and in and of itself it should be avoided at all costs.
EvF
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RE: Death Penalty
June 13, 2009 at 5:39 pm
(This post was last modified: June 13, 2009 at 5:48 pm by bozo.)
(June 13, 2009 at 3:58 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: (June 13, 2009 at 1:49 pm)bozo Wrote: I don't know about your assertion re. north american indians killing other indians, but even so that is not the same as what the white americans did to the indigenous red tribes, which was a crime by anybody's definition.
I disagree ... I believe you have simply decided it is different when there is no specific evidence to support your assertion.
Kyu
Same old Kyu, I won't bother continuing.
(June 13, 2009 at 2:40 pm)Samson Wrote: I am "For" the death penalty...
I don't give a shit about how much it costs, or any BS moral argument that someone tries and puts forth by sugar coating it with who is in the right or wrong for taking a life.
The one thing I hate hearing the most is for someone to bring up how inhumane the death penalty is. tell the parents or widowed husbands how inhumane it is to take the life of a murder that just raped and killed their wives and/or children...I'm sure they will understand completely...
Humans euthanize bad animals all the time. When a person does the most inhumane act such as murder, he/she is not longer human in my book, and has became an animal themselves.
I'll make it plain and simple; if someone were to rape or kill my wife or children, the police better catch them first. If not, then I will become the judge, jury and executioner for this animal...
Well, no sitting on the fence on this one then? You're a biblical eye for an eye then!!
I get quite uneasy at reactions like yours. Revenge is everything, it seems.
OK if you accept that is what it is...I can acknowledge that.
The main reason I oppose the death penalty is that miscarriages of justice happen all the time, everywhere.
Are you comfortable seeing innocent people executed to satisfy your blood-lust?
 A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: Death Penalty
June 13, 2009 at 6:01 pm
(June 13, 2009 at 5:39 pm)bozo Wrote: (June 13, 2009 at 3:58 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I disagree ... I believe you have simply decided it is different when there is no specific evidence to support your assertion.
Same old Kyu, I won't bother continuing.
An admission therefore that you cannot deal with the point raised ... suits me!
Kyu
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RE: Death Penalty
June 13, 2009 at 6:14 pm
(June 13, 2009 at 6:01 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: (June 13, 2009 at 5:39 pm)bozo Wrote: (June 13, 2009 at 3:58 pm)Kyuuketsuki Wrote: I disagree ... I believe you have simply decided it is different when there is no specific evidence to support your assertion.
Same old Kyu, I won't bother continuing.
An admission therefore that you cannot deal with the point raised ... suits me!
Kyu
You are so predictable and borish.
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: Death Penalty
June 13, 2009 at 7:37 pm
(This post was last modified: June 13, 2009 at 7:38 pm by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Quote:TRUTH1986 is quite correct, was it not a crime that the indigenous red people of America had their lands stolen from them by the white man?
Did You not read my post? Or is that you do not understand or agree with the logical fallacy of tu quoque ( literally "you too")
About the crimes,yes he's right they happened, that America was "'founded on crimes"' is hyperbole..
Even if true,it's a non sequitor to attempt to use it to argue against capital punishment.
My own moral position: I consider capital punishment and war to be murder. I do nor argue or explain my moral values,as they are not provable.
From Wiki
Quote:Tu quoque (IPA: /tu ˈkwoʊkwɛ/, Latin for "You, too" or "You, also") is a Latin term that describes a kind of logical fallacy. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[1]
You-too version
This form of the argument is as follows:
A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.
This is an instance of the two wrongs make a right fallacy.
Example:
"He cannot accuse me of libel because he was just successfully sued for libel." [quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
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RE: Death Penalty
June 13, 2009 at 7:47 pm
(June 13, 2009 at 7:37 pm)padraic Wrote: Quote:TRUTH1986 is quite correct, was it not a crime that the indigenous red people of America had their lands stolen from them by the white man?
Did You not read my post? Or is that you do not understand or agree with the logical fallacy of tu quoque ( literally "you too")
About the crimes,yes he's right they happened, that America was "'founded on crimes"' is hyperbole..
Even if true,it's a non sequitor to attempt to use it to argue against capital punishment.
My own moral position: I consider capital punishment and war to be murder. I do nor argue or explain my moral values,as they are not provable.
From Wiki
Quote:Tu quoque (IPA: /tu ˈkwoʊkwɛ/, Latin for "You, too" or "You, also") is a Latin term that describes a kind of logical fallacy. A tu quoque argument attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. It is considered an ad hominem argument, since it focuses on the party itself, rather than its positions.[1]
You-too version
This form of the argument is as follows:
A makes criticism P.
A is also guilty of P.
Therefore, P is dismissed.
This is an instance of the two wrongs make a right fallacy.
Example:
"He cannot accuse me of libel because he was just successfully sued for libel." [quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque
Crime is crime. The indigenous population of America were victims of crime. I say this is true.
Capital punishment is capital punishment. I disagree because Innocent people will be executed.
Quote me anything you like, it won't change my opinion.
A man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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RE: Death Penalty
June 13, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Less people breathing my oxygen and more pussy for me. Why the fuck should morality enter into it -unless your a pussy atheist.
"On Earth as it is in Heaven, the Cosmic Roots of the Bible" available on the Amazon.
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RE: Death Penalty
June 13, 2009 at 9:13 pm
Morality has to come into it for me...because I can't help but care!! Damn...  
Damn the empathy in my brain!! Damn it to hell! - But therefore don't damn it because 'Hell' doesn't exist so it's undamnable
EvF
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RE: Death Penalty
June 14, 2009 at 1:25 am
Kyu and EvF...
So it's ok for us to put down an "Animal" when it gets out of control, but we can't put down a human that has became an animal when they do..........Yeah, makes perfect sense...  Bottom line is, a human that has became a savage beast (Animal) has lost their right to be a human in society. They have lost their humanity, and should be treated as an animal.
Yes Kyu, I do get your point on the flaws of humanity and putting someone's life in stupid peoples hands.
As far as a "blood-lust" like Kyu so elegantly put it, you are damn right..Someone rapes or kills my family they will die if someone does not get to them first. Call it revenge, vengeance, punishment, I could give a rats ass how it's defined... You hurt my family, you will be hurt back. Hey, and I still stand by my statements above. If the people feel that I have became an animal for killing a man that raped or killed my daughters or wife, then so be it, I would die for my family, simple as that.
Intelligence is the only true moral guide...
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RE: Death Penalty
June 14, 2009 at 3:42 am
Quote: You hurt my family, you will be hurt back. Hey, and I still stand by my statements above. If the people feel that I have became an animal for killing a man that raped or killed my daughters or wife, then so be it, I would die for my family, simple as that.
I agree completely.
To quote from a movie I enjoyed; (Grisham's "A Time to Die")
" Someone rapes my little girl,he's a dead dog"
I would also probably take my vengeance if I could, as a visceral response, but not as a moral action.Vengeance is utterly human, but not moral in my opinion.
I guess we may need to agree to differ. BUT having said that, I claim to be a moral relativist;I have no idea how I would really feel or act until I'm in such an extreme position.--I'm also a cultural Irish Catholic,and titular head of my extended family. We're very clannish.
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