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Science can prove a god must exist
#1
Science can prove a god must exist
I want to put forward my best points on why there must be an uncaused cause, or some illogical event or some process outside of causality that had to happen in order to "jumpstart" the universe. i know it gets technical at points and seems to jump around but the way i presented this was almost in a bullet point fashion in order to get my thoughts down to paper so to speak. but please any questions you have please post them so i can respond.


First off in occams razor, the simplest explanation are usually the correct ones and to this point, I do not believe in infinities in this universe. However in explaining current string theory and singularities I will acknowledge that they might exist, however when you truly have anything in infinite dimensions fundamental laws break down and that is where occams razor comes in, i don't believe the laws of physics break down. In black holes I know due to the lack of surface volume your equation would leads to an infinitely dense structure in the singularity however I believe it is extremely compact but not break the laws of plank's length. Nothing can be smaller then a plank length or else the laws of physics would be violated. There is a professor martin bojowald at Penn State that has been pioneering loop quantum cosmology, a study of relativity and quantum mechanics together without the need for higher dimensions to explain a unified field theory. one of the implication is that you can't have infinite densities just extreme densities but not infinite. This model I been following seems to be the most correct view of our current understanding to bridge quantum and relativity.

Now that I have the rant out about my hatred of the infinite, let me now look at the conservation of mass and energy. Through repeated scientific observation, even in the most extreme of conditions we have never seen matter or energy either disappear or be created, black holes discharge the energy, and quantum foam, if real would annihilate the particles and have a zero gain/loss in the process. Quite frankly matter just can't bee created or destroyed period. This in turn has made the laws of thermodynamics as they have arisen from thee facts.

Let’s take a look at the universe using the filter of the second law of thermodynamics. we know the universe wasn't always around because if it was, we would have experienced something called heat death, a process in which a closed system(the universe) will always rise in entropy as the suns burns out, as the cosmic radiation evens out, even atomic motion will stop, as all potential energy is converted and used up as kinetic. IF the universe was infinite then this would already have happened, thus paving the way for more rational minds to look a the background microwaves and spectrum shifts that lead in fact a big bang did indeed happen.

So okay still with me, we can prove a big bang did indeed happen, this describes all the effects of mass/energy and space/time interactions happening from the very first point in time and going forward, but it relies on the fact we need a cosmic egg of near infinite mass energy to work with for it to explode. so you may ask what happened before the big bang, and here's the interesting part. most scientists believe there was no time space before the big bang, nothing at all, a complete void of voids that have no properties of defining characteristics of any way shape or form( the space that we know of today has an interaction between mass and the presence of gravity, the void that existed did not even have this). to this theory this egg of mass and energy did not exist, almost as if it was placed there. sure you will hear about quantum fluctuation or the energy of gravity bouncing off the brane(dimensional fabric) of another universe but that would imply there was something there and not a complete void of voids. See everything that has a beginning has a cause, this is a law of logic and the big bang never address where this stuff came from just what happens to it. with the discovery of dark energy and matter and the pulls and tugs done on expansion, there is enough potential evidence that we live in a cyclical universe that always expand and contracts, it kind of conveniently gets around the “where did this mass energy come from explanation”.

So that takes me back to infinity again, yea my favorite cop out, errr concept. In a cyclical universe matter and energy are considered infinite because it can't be created or destroyed. Just think about this right now, I mean really think. If matter was ever created at some time in the past, then it has a beginning and a cause and explanation, if it can be destroyed then it has an ending and can't be called infinite so the cyclical universe would not work if matter could appear and disappear, because if this is true an infinite time has already passed, when dealing with infinity anywhere on the "number line" or concept you have an infinite number of steps behind and in front, and a property is that all events that can physically happen with regard to probability and law of structure will happen in an infinite period. So many scientists that do believe in the cyclical theory will say ahh haa there is your proof the universe always existed, because if it didn't it would have already ended and no laws were violated in creation since mass energy doesn't have a starting point. I say okay, but here's my problem with that. first off there is alot of scientific evidence against cyclical theory. the time period between pulses where the universe contracts and expands would grow again due to entropy and would stall out, however two leading theories that deal with overcoming this challenge and starting the universe with no entropy each time, have to rely on other dimensions in order to get the needed bounce to over come the laws of observable repeatable physics. but say they are right, here comes the truly bizarre and unexplained. I love this because atheists and scientists say well if god created everything what created god and yet they use the same mentality to say well if the big bang didn't create matter then an infinite number of big bangs and big crunches did. they are the same causeless explanation one side theology one side science all saying it just always was.

Well one thing about definition though, when something is created it is defined and there has always been causes for these definition, such as a cake came form a baker, that small black hole came from us smashing protons together at high speed, that black hole came from immense gravity, the water is wet because of it's chemistry, the planets are round due to gravity ect ect ect. well then ask yourselves if an electron is this size, why is that way. why isn't the universe a big collection of hydrogen, why is there only a finite amount of material in the universe(quasar, spectral, electromagnetic wave analysis sees we are only about 300,000 light years away from looks at the edge of the universe), why does gravity have a field strength that pulls at 9.8 meters a second squared. these characteristic would have to have some explanation even if it were chaos theory, quantum theory, some sort of expansion by product what ever, but here's the rub. if matter always existed then all these theories could not have shaped these fundamental measurements of how they are. when mass and energy came into existence it came in with these specific values but why these when they could have been any other set, it does hint that there must have been some sort of cause that imprinted these values before they were laid into a space/time place holder. which finally brings me to the absurdity of mass/energy if it is infinite. at some point matter must have been brought into existence or else it wouldn't be here but yet if you look around everything is made up of this weird stuff. forget about the infinite loop violation which there are plenty I have researched this well and absolute fail in logic to explain this, this stuff has effects without cause( it is created without explanation of how, unless of course it is magic and spontaneous creation) there just is no natural explanation of it's creation without breaking a known law of science which leads me to the fact that it's very existence let's me no as a reminder that some sort of process or cause not necessarily a god or being but some sort of act of supernatural effect CAUSED matter to come into existence at some point.

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#2
RE: science can prove a god must exist
"Everything that has a beginning has a cause" is the Kalam variant of the Cosmological Argument. It was designed to avoid the question that plagued a previous variant (which instead simply stated everything has a cause). If everything has a cause, what is the cause of god? Kalam restates the premise as everything that began to exist. Potentially removing the objection. However, the argument fails to offer anything else (besides an un-caused god) that belongs within this classification. If absolutely everything requires a cause, except for god, we have a classic case of special pleading, begging the question, and circularity (and hilariously much, much more than these three). Long story short, it's a terrible argument. Rayaan should be ashamed that he gave it kudos.

For my own part, I would say that clearly god has a cause. We are that cause. Don't find too many Deer building churches, do we? Not that these arguments are convincing to me one way or the other. I prefer evidence. The universe came from -we don't know-. That something is unknown, does not automatically make it "supernatural".

Shaman, saman, or samanka, possible roots meaning "to burn". This has been hypothesized as referring to a high fever. Good word right there. Welcome aboard.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam
( a link for you )
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#3
RE: Science can prove a god must exist
Yep, his fever has a cause, and it ain't a need for cowbell.
Trying to update my sig ...
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#4
RE: Science can prove a god must exist
I agree with the post because I don't believe in an infinite regression either.

Why does the cause have to be supernatural?

Because I think that matter and energy would not be able to self-organize themselves into living things without an intelligence acting on them (even if through evolution). I think there has to be something intelligent in the universe that causes a collection of lifeless particles to turn back on itself and to perceive itself. I know it can be explained by evolution. Even the universe can be explained by the laws of physics. However, either the laws created themselves or they were always there - and whichever of the two it is - there should be a simpler explanation for the laws until we are left with one, single law which explains every other law in the universe. This ultimate law could be God Himself which was always present and didn't need to be created.

This is also interesting:
A Critical Evaluation of Prof. Dawkins’ Question: ‘Who made God?’
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#5
RE: Science can prove a god must exist
@mastertrell

It's considered good manners to introduce yourself before posting

Wall of text for your first post. You lost me with the claim of arriving at truth through reason alone.

That nothing can come from nothing is an almost universal belief, not established fact ( see black swan theory) In fact physicist Lawrence Krauss is currently arguing that something can, must, and has come from nothing. To be blunt, I find him to be more convincing.

I recommend having a glance at the video below,introduced by Richard Dawkins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo


000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000


Quote:The Black Swan: The Impact of the Highly Improbable is a literary/philosophical book by the epistemologist Nassim Nicholas Taleb. The book focuses on the extreme impact of certain kinds of rare and unpredictable events (outliers) and humans' tendency to find simplistic explanations for these events retrospectively, after the fact. This theory has since become known as the black swan theory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_S...eb_book%29

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#6
RE: Science can prove a god must exist
(September 28, 2011 at 3:29 am)padraic Wrote: In fact physicist Lawrence Krauss is currently arguing that something can, must, and has come from nothing.

I think calling it "nothing" is misleading, because there is still a thing, but it just doesn't have any force or energy to do work.

If there was nothing - absolutely nothing at all - then there would have always been nothing.

According to one theory, there may have been a net energy of zero in the beginning and then some kind of fluctuation disturbed the energy and caused it to do work. However, I'm saying this from a scientific point of view because I cannot prove whether or not this quantum fluctuation was the act of a divine or an intelligent being.

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#7
RE: Science can prove a god must exist
To be completely fair, mastertrell is a hell of a lot smarter than the usual ilk that gets sent this way. You say 'infinite regress' to most theists or deists and they just scratch their heads and say 'Godidit'. Like I said, this one seems more intelligent (yes, it's a compliment mastertrell) Welcome to the forum.
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#8
RE: Science can prove a god must exist
Yeah fair enough, he hasn't squandered my current belief in his brain just yet.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#9
RE: Science can prove a god must exist
(September 28, 2011 at 1:50 am)mastertrell Wrote: See everything that has a beginning has a cause

This is where this argument completely falls apart.

There is an equivocation fallacy right at the beaning that invalidates the entire argument.

When 'Begins to exist' is first used in the argument, it is just a rearrangement of existing matter. A tree 'begins to exist' by rearranging the existing matter in the soil.

But then a different meaning for 'begins to exist' is used to describe the universe, it is creation Ex nihilo. A god creating the universe out of nothing.

'Begins to exist', 2 different meanings. Equivocation fail.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#10
RE: Science can prove a god must exist
It might be good for a few people to (re-)read Parmenides.
Trying to update my sig ...
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