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New religion
#21
RE: New religion
Was that god not the vanquisher of Planc, the Inflexible?
Trying to update my sig ...
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#22
RE: New religion
(October 14, 2011 at 11:22 am)Epimethean Wrote: What "witnesses" to Jesus are we talking about, since we are working toward some sense of accuracy?
In the first place, Christianity would have died an early death if what was recorded in Scripture were falsehoods - which could easily have been proven by those living close to or during the time the reported events happened. Nowhere are the facts stated disputed in early writings.
Christianity was hardly “in vogue” at the time of Jesus, and could easily have been dismissed if the facts stated could have been proven wrong. Especially the resurrection.

Christ and Christians were ridiculed even then, but no claims are made by any historian that Jesus was either a liar or a madman. He was accused of certain powers which were attributed even to sorcery and described as a “sage” by some. In the article mentioned below, the works of CELSUS is mentioned, who was an "avid opponent" of Christianity does not claim Jesus either to be a liar or or madman. Neither does Tacitus, neither does Jewish sources (who were seriously opposed to Jesus and his teachings)
Reference to scholarly research indicating the opposite, would be welcomed.

You are also welcome to view this page as well as this for some more detailed information.
It is self-evident that historians of calibre or those wishing to debate on the issue will not record as fact that which will jeopardize their credibility and in the absence of such information, reliable witnesses are implied/claimed as hearsay would ruin his/her reputation.

Which brings us to the conclusion an honest observer will have to come to: Reliable evidence suggests that Jesus was if good mental health and performed miracles (ascribed to sorcery etc.), and claimed to be God himself.

Thus the question remains: If it is true what Jesus claimed (He is God), and rose from the dead, his comments should be taken seriously?

It would seem to me that honest study of facts will bring you closer to Christianity rather than further away from it. You are welcome to study some of the work of Lee Strobel, (see his testimony http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs) who was an atheist and a hard-nosed reporter. You may also study some of the work of CS Lewis (also an ex-atheist)

Just one further coment: One would have to accept that more than the natural world exists if prophecy can be shown to be accurate. There are a number of resources but in view of the fact that the end time seems to be approaching, you may also read[url= http://thedevineevidence.com/prophecy.html] the following[/url] on the same site.

May I ask on what grounds have you become an atheist? It would seem to me to be more case of a decision of principle in many cases than factual data. The reason for this conclusion is the fact that when historians or for instance archaeologists investigate to disprove the Bible, they come to conclusions that it is a reliable document. But I may be wrong in my conclusion.




(October 9, 2011 at 12:03 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote:
(October 9, 2011 at 11:47 am)Carnavon Wrote: History will also prove you wrong on the issue of "people falling in line". Christianity has from the very beginning thrived under conditions of persecution. Even modern history will tell you that Christianity is most "healthy" and growing in countries where they are persecuted. Christianity is on decline where it is tolerated/accepted.
What is really sad, is that much of what is being claimed on atheist forums seems to be regurgitated stereotypes/texts taken out of context without any indepth knowledge.

Christianity did its fair share of persecuting.

Look at what it did to the cathars, catholics(by protestants), protestants(by catholics), jews, all the north and south american religions and of course they couldn't stand unbelievers.

The truth is that christianity only suffered persecuion for a short while, but rained down millenia of persecution since gaining power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_...Christians
You are absolutely right. Christianity/Christians have in the past (and some still do) perpetrated acts of violence, disrespect in the name of Christianity. If you judged my life as well, I do not live up to the standard that Christ set in both his life and teachings. We are to love our enemies and pray for those that persecute us.
You claim as truth that Christianity suffered persecution for a short while. This is contrary to evidence as you may easily establish if you took the time to read some of the articles on http://incontext.webs.com/ for instance in which is was for instance stated "(WashingtonPost) 11 Oct 2011 - Breaking news reports out of Iran provide that the state court of Gilan, which recently demanded that Christian Pastor Youcef Nadarkhani recant his faith or face execution, has delayed its written decision. Many similar stories are available.
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#23
RE: New religion
So duration is the expression of truthfulness? By this token, you admit that Hinduism is true, Judaism is true, and Islam is true. So, you are a pantheist, Carn?

Why did I become an atheist? Because the bullshit like you just sprayed smelled and tasted foul. It has no substance save for its nastiness.
Trying to update my sig ...
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#24
RE: New religion
My god's dick is bigger than your god's. Isn't that what it all boils down to?
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
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#25
RE: New religion
You will forget 'xxxtobymac' for I am the true god.

I Am That I Am and there shall be no others. If any do not bow before me and believe, I will destroy the world and all that exists and send your sorry asses into the lake of fire. I hereby appoint 'Minimalist' as my right hand. All that he says on earth, so shall it be in heaven.

You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#26
RE: New religion
(October 16, 2011 at 8:55 am)Epimethean Wrote: So duration is the expression of truthfulness? By this token, you admit that Hinduism is true, Judaism is true, and Islam is true. So, you are a pantheist, Carn?

Why did I become an atheist? Because the bullshit like you just sprayed smelled and tasted foul. It has no substance save for its nastiness.
Please
1) explain your argument re duration.
2) explain the information provided that you regard as drivel.
It will be great if you could provide fact as it is quite difficult to respond to general and unsubstantiated remarks.
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#27
RE: New religion
Quote:In the first place, Christianity would have died an early death if what was recorded in Scripture were falsehoods

The Greek gods lasted for 2 millenia and the Egyptian gods for twice that before both were stamped out violently by xtian thugs. Using your ridiculous analogy they should be twice as true as xtianity?

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#28
RE: New religion
I just barfed because I saw Lee Strobel. You could have at least referenced somebody like William Lane Craig... even though he's delusional too, he makes for a more interesting argument.

Testimony is bullshit. Do you want testimonies of faith at your murder trial, when you know you're innocent, but everyone is sure and has faith that you did it? What if the evidence would clear you, but they won't allow it? Is that cool with you that testimonies of faith would only be admissible.

Of course not. The faith that you murdered someone could endure forever. Faith means nothing in the real world. Only evidence. It's drivel because it's the same baseless crap we hear all the time from theists.

Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism have been around longer than Christianity. How could you not bow and kiss the feet of Krishna? How could you not seek enlightenment by keeping your mouth shut and forming no attachments? How could you worship that false prophet?

If endurance proves something true, then there is some religions more true than Christianity.

See my siggy for details about how christianity got it's followers.

42

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#29
RE: New religion
(October 16, 2011 at 11:47 am)Carnavon Wrote:
(October 16, 2011 at 8:55 am)Epimethean Wrote: So duration is the expression of truthfulness? By this token, you admit that Hinduism is true, Judaism is true, and Islam is true. So, you are a pantheist, Carn?

Why did I become an atheist? Because the bullshit like you just sprayed smelled and tasted foul. It has no substance save for its nastiness.
Please
1) explain your argument re duration.
2) explain the information provided that you regard as drivel.
It will be great if you could provide fact as it is quite difficult to respond to general and unsubstantiated remarks.

"In the first place, Christianity would have died an early death if what was recorded in Scripture were falsehoods - which could easily have been proven by those living close to or during the time the reported events happened. Nowhere are the facts stated disputed in early writings.
Christianity was hardly “in vogue” at the time of Jesus, and could easily have been dismissed if the facts stated could have been proven wrong. Especially the resurrection."

Here is the answer to 1 and 2. This is rubbish. Many religions survived despite absolutely no reliable evidence of their miracles or the reliability of their prophecies. Any crackpot can interpret any text and gain a "prophecy" out of it, especially retrospectively, which seems to have been the case with the "resurrection." Please, stop palavering about truth when you are using a fairy tale collection with about as much historical accuracy as The Chronicles of Narnia.

Yeah, I read C.S. Lewis, even some of his religious crap. He was better when he admitted what he was writing was fantasy. Is it possible to drum it into your head that the bible contains few if any facts? It is a storybook compendium. You should read Battlefield Earth. Maybe it is full of facts, too, but we'll just have to wait until aliens invade, then start up the rationalization machine again.

The best use of the word jesus is to evince utter disgust, which is what I feel when you ask for facts while spouting off biblical inanities. Evidence is the word you should ask for, and yet, before you do, you should provide some yourself.

Trying to update my sig ...
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#30
RE: New religion
(October 16, 2011 at 1:45 am)Carnavon Wrote: In the first place, Christianity would have died an early death if what was recorded in Scripture were falsehoods

If we are to base the validity of a religion on the basis of it's survival, Hinduism has been around for the better part of 4000 years and perhaps back as far as 7000BC. A 9000 year old religion still in practice today.

linky link
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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