The trinity.

[objectivitees]

A member on another thread, in an attempt to derail the line of reasoning I was employing, asked me to explain the trinity in a way that was not an inherent self-contradicting formulation. His unstated claim was essentially, that the concept was not explainable, and therefore since it was part and parcel of of my religion, my religion was therefore false, in turn nullifying the particular argument I was making in part, as it was based upon presuppositions contained by the whole.

Well, for the few Christian who haunt these nether realms you'll be glad I have not enjoined the obvious attempt at a red herring distraction at that thread...

For the atheists...I'll here give a description of the trinity in language even you can understand without a seminary degree, which at once explains it and shows it contains no contradictions.

I was asked specifically (I'll paraphrase) 'how could God possibly be three persons yet one entity, how could he be Father, Son, and Holy spirit, yet a single being. How can you not see a contradiction in this description of god?'

my answer...He does it the same way I do,

I am Dave, an entity with a body that I Dave control, my being distinct from the body I inhabit, as evinced by the fact that I control the body, it does not control me, demonstrating that I Dave, am a spiritual being. As such, I came into existence by an act of my father Hank, making me also a Son. As a Son, I also acted, and brought into being my Son, Frank. I AM all three, Father, Son, and Spirit, one entity incorporate and known as DAVE.

To me, I am a person who has several characteristics that make me unique, My son sees another person with characteristics even I don't see, and my father sees me better than I or my son, as yet a third person still different from our perceptions. I am different from each perspective, and yet still the same one person without contradiction. Father, Son, and Spirit. Me.

If I can be all three persons in one, how much more so can God?

Good night.

[Minimalist]

making me also a Son

Nice try, asshole. Except you morons claim that the son is the father...which of course would make him a motherfucker.

Go blow jesus out your ass.

[Cyberman]

For the atheists...I'll here give a description of the trinity in language even you can understand without a seminary degree

Offence taken.

Good night.

[Justtristo]

my answer...He does it the same way I do,

I am Dave, an entity with a body that I Dave control, my being distinct from the body I inhabit, as evinced by the fact that I control the body, it does not control me, demonstrating that I Dave, am a spiritual being. As such, I came into existence by an act of my father Hank, making me also a Son. As a Son, I also acted, and brought into being my Son, Frank. I AM all three, Father, Son, and Spirit, one entity incorporate and known as DAVE.

Before we go further, may I ask why do you believe that your mind is not totally the product of your brain?

In order to disprove the notion that mind is not caused by the brain. Neuroscientist Steven Novella constructed six criteria to test the brain causing mind hypothesis. If just one of the these criteria aren't met, we can determine that brain does not cause mind.

1- Brain states will correlate to mental and behavioral states.

2- Brain maturity will correlate with mental and emotional maturity.

3- Changing the brain’s function (with drugs, electrical or magnetic stimulation, or other methods) will change mental function.

4- Damaging the brain with damage the mind – producing specific deficits that correlate to the area of the brain damaged.

5- There will be no documentable mental phenomena in the absence of brain function.

6- When the brain dies, mental function ends.

[DeistPaladin]

Well, for the few Christian who haunt these nether realms you'll be glad I have not enjoined the obvious attempt at a red herring distraction at that thread...

As I already explained, this is not a red herring but quite relevant to the discussion. In the context of our discussion Objectivitees, when you dismiss all the other god possibilities as illogical (in the context of TAG or some similar philoso-babble argument) you need to be prepared to defend your own.

I realize that it's accepted practice among the faithful of any religion to consider their own god to be the only one out there. Any apologetic argument for the existence of "God" is therefore always assumed to refer exclusively and implicitly to the one that your religion worships. Funny how the same apologetic arguments get recycled in Islam and other religions with the same implicit assumption.

Another practice among the faithful is to dismiss the other gods of other religions with the same skeptical thinking that atheists employ, yet refuse to apply the very same critical thinking to your own. This is classic special pleading.

In this forum, neither practice is given a pass. If you deride other god possibilities as "illogical", get ready to defend the rationality if your own.

my answer...He does it the same way I do,

I am Dave, an entity with a body that I Dave control, my being distinct from the body I inhabit, as evinced by the fact that I control the body, it does not control me, demonstrating that I Dave, am a spiritual being.

You can prove this claim, right? That you are "distinct" from the body you inhabit? That it does not "control" you? Even if we assume the existence of a soul, the body has hormones and other factors that influence our emotions and behaviors.

As such, I came into existence by an act of my father Hank, making me also a Son. As a Son, I also acted, and brought into being my Son, Frank. I AM all three, Father, Son, and Spirit, one entity incorporate and known as DAVE.

I am a business owner. I am a musician and composer. I am a husband. I'm a gamer. I'm a poster on this forum. Heck, I'm five different people and I'm just getting started.

Of course, we both know this is NOT what Christians mean when they say that Yahweh and Jesus are separate persons. Jesus has a separate will from Yahweh, his father. My musician identity doesn't have a separate will from my gamer identity. I don't pray to my businessman self. My businessman self doesn't speak in a booming voice from the sky introducing myself as a poster on this forum.

Analogy fail.

Next?

[IATIA]

I am Dave, an entity with a body that I Dave control, my being distinct from the body I inhabit, as evinced by the fact that I control the body, it does not control me ...

Sorry. Wrong! Every thought in your head is generated by a chemical reaction that generates an electrical impulse to create a thought. Your body does control you. It is not a separate entity.

Try to stay awake for 6 days. You can rest on the seventh. You cannot do it, Your body controls you. Take speed to stay up and your body will retaliate with insanity. Your body does control you.

Try again. Better luck next time!

[Jaysyn]

I am Dave, an entity with a body that I Dave control, my being distinct from the body I inhabit, as evinced by the fact that I control the body, it does not control me, demonstrating that I Dave, am a spiritual being. As such, I came into existence by an act of my father Hank, making me also a Son. As a Son, I also acted, and brought into being my Son, Frank. I AM all three, Father, Son, and Spirit, one entity incorporate and known as DAVE.

So on top of being imaginary, your god has a multiple personality disorder. 10-4.

[Zen Badger]

Your imaginary friend can have whatever attributes you like.

That's the best thing about imaginary friends, they never disagree with you.

[IATIA]

So on top of being imaginary, your god has a multiple personality disorder. 10-4.

That explains the psychotic trends in the babble-book. Thanks for your insight.

[Zen Badger]

I am Dave, an entity with a body that I Dave control, my being distinct from the body I inhabit, as evinced by the fact that I control the body, it does not control me, demonstrating that I Dave, am a spiritual being. As such, I came into existence by an act of my father Hank, making me also a Son. As a Son, I also acted, and brought into being my Son, Frank. I AM all three, Father, Son, and Spirit, one entity incorporate and known as DAVE.

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