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RE: Yep! Another query for the xtians.
October 25, 2011 at 1:58 am
frodo, I think you are correct in defining free will as a biological mechanism. I just don't believe that God is the so called giver of this free will. Iatia, I am not sure I understand your question but allow me to take a crack at it. First off let me state my position, I don't believe in the existence of God nor that the universe itself was intelligently designed by some uncaused cause who in this case we will call the Christian God. If you state that everything that exists has a cause for its existence then to state that God is not subject to these rules would be nothing more than special pleading. Therefore my answer to the first part of your question is that God is not an uncaused cause. Regarding free will I have sided with frodo and his definition of it and don't see the correlation between the first part of your question and the second half.
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RE: Yep! Another query for the xtians.
October 25, 2011 at 7:17 am
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2011 at 7:17 am by edk.)
(October 25, 2011 at 1:58 am)chatpilot Wrote: frodo, I think you are correct in defining free will as a biological mechanism. I just don't believe that God is the so called giver of this free will. Iatia, I am not sure I understand your question but allow me to take a crack at it. First off let me state my position, I don't believe in the existence of God nor that the universe itself was intelligently designed by some uncaused cause who in this case we will call the Christian God. If you state that everything that exists has a cause for its existence then to state that God is not subject to these rules would be nothing more than special pleading. Therefore my answer to the first part of your question is that God is not an uncaused cause. Regarding free will I have sided with frodo and his definition of it and don't see the correlation between the first part of your question and the second half.
The argument, as I understand it, is as follows:
1. Christians argue that God must exist, because there must exist an "unmoved mover".
2. For an "unmoved mover" to be required, the universe must be deterministic, otherwise stuff would be liable to happen at random.
3. Therefore, the starting conditions of the universe predetermine every choice ever made by anyone.
4. God sets the starting conditions.
5. Ergo, your choices were made by God before they were made by you.
6. Is this free will?
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RE: Yep! Another query for the xtians.
October 25, 2011 at 8:04 am
(October 25, 2011 at 1:58 am)chatpilot Wrote:
)Causality is a different issue altogether.) It is the position of theists to ascertain that god is uncaused. Under this condition, free will is totally biochemical or not. For free will to work outside biochemical bounds, there must be an external awareness separate from the body. If free will now has no biochemical process to initiate thought and choice, what is the cause?
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
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RE: Yep! Another query for the xtians.
October 25, 2011 at 8:40 am
(October 25, 2011 at 7:17 am)edk141 Wrote: (October 25, 2011 at 1:58 am)chatpilot Wrote: frodo, I think you are correct in defining free will as a biological mechanism. I just don't believe that God is the so called giver of this free will. Iatia, I am not sure I understand your question but allow me to take a crack at it. First off let me state my position, I don't believe in the existence of God nor that the universe itself was intelligently designed by some uncaused cause who in this case we will call the Christian God. If you state that everything that exists has a cause for its existence then to state that God is not subject to these rules would be nothing more than special pleading. Therefore my answer to the first part of your question is that God is not an uncaused cause. Regarding free will I have sided with frodo and his definition of it and don't see the correlation between the first part of your question and the second half.
The argument, as I understand it, is as follows:
1. Christians argue that God must exist, because there must exist an "unmoved mover".
2. For an "unmoved mover" to be required, the universe must be deterministic, otherwise stuff would be liable to happen at random.
3. Therefore, the starting conditions of the universe predetermine every choice ever made by anyone.
4. God sets the starting conditions.
5. Ergo, your choices were made by God before they were made by you.
6. Is this free will?
If all your actions are predetermined by God then I agree that this is not free will.
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RE: Yep! Another query for the xtians.
October 25, 2011 at 12:10 pm
(October 25, 2011 at 7:17 am)edk141 Wrote: The argument, as I understand it, is as follows:
1. Christians argue that God must exist, because there must exist an "unmoved mover".
2. For an "unmoved mover" to be required, the universe must be deterministic, otherwise stuff would be liable to happen at random.
3. Therefore, the starting conditions of the universe predetermine every choice ever made by anyone.
4. God sets the starting conditions.
5. Ergo, your choices were made by God before they were made by you.
6. Is this free will? Cool.
Yes. As in: you are a free agent to make the choice that your will dictates. You are predisposed to be drawn to God.
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RE: Yep! Another query for the xtians.
October 25, 2011 at 12:13 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2011 at 12:14 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Whatever happened to being predisposed towards "total depravity"? Thought it took "irresistable grace" to be drawn to god and become one of the "elect"........... I suspect that you don't actually follow that shit and just argued for it to irritate me. Are you a liar or just confused?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Yep! Another query for the xtians.
October 25, 2011 at 12:16 pm
Those were your usual personal imaginings Rhythm. Meanwhile, back in the real world: there is no contradiction there.
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RE: Yep! Another query for the xtians.
October 25, 2011 at 12:19 pm
(This post was last modified: October 25, 2011 at 12:20 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
ORLY?
"You are predisposed to be drawn to god"-Frodo
"Total depravity (also called absolute inability, radical corruption, total corruption, or Augustinianism) is a theological doctrine that derives from the Augustinian concept of original sin. It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is offered."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity
How's your backstroke?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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