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Why did god create evil?
#21
RE: Why did god create evil?
Curiosity never killed the cat... It fucked humanity.
Cunt
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#22
RE: Why did god create evil?
(October 24, 2011 at 7:34 am)lucent Wrote: He had to give them the choice, otherwise they would just be robots. God could have created them so they would just do whatever He told them to do, but you can't have meaningful relationships with automotons. And It wasn't a loaded gun, it was an apple, and they both lived to be almost 1000 years of age. It's not as if God stopped taking care of them.

(October 24, 2011 at 7:38 am)edk141 Wrote: In other words, it was even more tempting than a loaded gun, because apples are nice.

He could not give them the choice without knowing what they would do. When he created them, his omniscience would have told him what was going to happen, and he could have changed it at any point, but didn't.

Foreknowledge doesn't rule out free will. Foreknowledge doesn't force you to do something, nor does it prevent you from doing something.

(October 24, 2011 at 7:38 am)edk141 Wrote: He also didn't have to give them the apple in the first place. Why create a garden with a dangerous tree in it? What is so wrong with knowledge anyway? This is just a shitty story used to justify keeping knowledge from the peasants.

He could not give them the choice without knowing what they would do. When he created them, his omniscience would have told him what was going to happen, and he could have changed it at any point, but didn't

Why create a garden with a dangerous tree in it? What is so wrong with knowledge anyway? This is just a shitty story used to justify keeping knowledge from the peasants..

He put it there so they had a choice between good and evil, and there is nothing wrong with knowledge. God wanted to teach them His way, but He gave them the opportunity to defy Him and try to take a shortcut. Remember that Eve was tempted of the tree because she wanted Gods wisdom for herself.

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#23
RE: Why did god create evil?
Who created Satan? Why allow him into the garden? Why put the tree there? If you want a nice tree, why give it magical properties that bestow knowledge upon those that eat its fruit? Why not stop Eve before she ate it?

Every answer just raises further questions. Why? Because it's fucking made up.
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#24
RE: Why did god create evil?
No matter how ridiculous the story is, their mind won't let them give up the belief... They have too much invested in it... By continuing to believe these tall tales just means that they have a false purpose. Fear drives them... If they consciously know it or not.
Cunt
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#25
RE: Why did god create evil?
(October 24, 2011 at 7:41 am)frankiej Wrote:
(October 24, 2011 at 7:34 am)lucent Wrote: they both lived to be almost 1000 years of age.

I call bullshit on this one Tongue

Lunar years. Makes them around 70 something.
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#26
RE: Why did god create evil?
(October 24, 2011 at 7:52 am)lucent Wrote: Foreknowledge doesn't rule out free will. Foreknowledge doesn't force you to do something, nor does it prevent you from doing something.

word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad


It absolutely does. God, if he is omniscient, made every choice for humans in advance. He had the ability to choose starting conditions - it wasn't just that he knew where humanity would go, but he manipulated it into going a specific way, thereby deciding all future choices.

If he had set humanity in motion, but couldn't see the future, free will could exist. Likewise, if he could see the future, but not control it, free will could exist. But since he can do both, he chose what every human ever would choose to do when he created the universe, and that isn't free will.

God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the apple. Why did he construct a world in which that would happen? Motherfucker.

(October 24, 2011 at 7:52 am)lucent Wrote: Remember that Eve was tempted of the tree because she wanted Gods wisdom for herself.

Nope. She was tempted by that snake guy.
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#27
RE: Why did god create evil?
(October 24, 2011 at 7:47 am)Faith No More Wrote: So we're all damned because he gave adam and eve freewill? As an omnipotent god he should have been able to foresee all the consequences of this act.

If your god is up there, he is responsible for everything including evil.

What He is responsible for is beings who freely chose evil, and keep choosing it. His foreknowledge doesn't limit free will. And, He did something about it which was to redeem creation through His Son.
(October 24, 2011 at 8:07 am)edk141 Wrote:
(October 24, 2011 at 7:52 am)lucent Wrote: Foreknowledge doesn't rule out free will. Foreknowledge doesn't force you to do something, nor does it prevent you from doing something.

word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad word salad


It absolutely does. God, if he is omniscient, made every choice for humans in advance. He had the ability to choose starting conditions - it wasn't just that he knew where humanity would go, but he manipulated it into going a specific way, thereby deciding all future choices.

If he had set humanity in motion, but couldn't see the future, free will could exist. Likewise, if he could see the future, but not control it, free will could exist. But since he can do both, he chose what every human ever would choose to do when he created the universe, and that isn't free will.

God knew that Adam and Eve would eat the apple. Why did he construct a world in which that would happen? Motherfucker.

(October 24, 2011 at 7:52 am)lucent Wrote: Remember that Eve was tempted of the tree because she wanted Gods wisdom for herself.

Nope. She was tempted by that snake guy.

First you have to define omniscience. There are things God cannot know under the most accepted definition. For instance, He can't know of a time He didn't exist. He can't know how to hide information from Himself. There are limitations to the standard definition of omniscience that people hold to which are self-refuting. I don't think it meaningfully describes God, personally.

You seem to think it is impossible for an omniscient (and all powerful) God to create beings with free will. I think it would be a rather trivial matter. I can imagine several scenerios on my own, such as limiting myself in such a way that my creatures could surprise me. God limited Himself when He came to Earth as a human being, after all. I think God is capable of creating a scenerio He couldn't completely anticipate while still maining His omniscience. The definition of omniscience that I use is "knowing everything that can be known". Does God know every thought He will ever have? That just seems ridiculous.

Again, foreknowledge does not limit free will. Just because He chose this scenerio doesn't mean He manipulated all of our choices. There is nothing barring that this is the best and most fair scenerio possible, regardless of what God knew in advance. The existence of evil doesn't contridict that possibility.

"Nope. She was tempted by that snake guy."

Satan tempted her, but she wanted the apple to gain Gods wisdom. If you see an ad for a new car, and you buy it, did the ad make you buy it?

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#28
RE: Why did god create evil?
Most philosophers accept Plantinga's free will defense and thus see the logical problem of evil as having been sufficiently rebutted.

Plantinga's summary of his free will defense:
Plantinga Wrote:A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all. Now God can create free creatures, but He can't cause or determine them to do only what is right. For if He does so, then they aren't significantly free after all; they do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil; and He can't give these creatures the freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent them from doing so. As it turned out, sadly enough, some of the free creatures God created went wrong in the exercise of their freedom; this is the source of moral evil. The fact that free creatures sometimes go wrong, however, counts neither against God's omnipotence nor against His goodness; for He could have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good.
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#29
RE: Why did god create evil?
Sigh. You need no power whatsoever to invalidate free will beyond the ability to see the future. A very powerful "precognitive" human being would nullify free will. If the future can be known it is written. There is no free will when the road leads only one way. You don't have to be an omnipotent creator god, if you could only see five minutes into the future then it would safe to say that for at least the next five minutes there is no such thing as free will. End of.

I don't see anything to support Platinga's assertions whatsoever regarding free will. All I see is bullshit from the first letter to the last Frodo. Does stuff like that actually work for you?
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#30
RE: Why did god create evil?

(October 24, 2011 at 9:24 am)Rhythm Wrote: Sigh. You need no power whatsoever to invalidate free will beyond the ability to see the future. A very powerful "precognitive" human being would nullify free will. If the future can be known it is written. There is no free will when the road leads only one way. End of.

I don't understand how they can't see that... It is very easy to understand.

Cunt
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