Pyramid of Capitalism

[kılıç_mehmet]

You don't support anarchy because you're weak? How... Typical.

Well, if I were weak, would you throw me out to the dogs?
That's so much for the fairness of your worldview.

All that armies are is a group of thugs. If that bothers you then that's great. If it doesn't then why mention it? I dont like mercs. Others can use them, but if they think about attacking a place I live in: they will meet pain there.

Yes, you certainly talk big.

As for how well I would fare: quite. Did I mention that you miss less with explosives the more of them there are? and that poisons are easier to spread into supplies the more of them there are?

Yeah, you certainly watched either too many movies, or played too many video games.
You wouldn't even find the supplies that you need to carry out your current life if you were living *your world*.

Afraid you don't understand how tetchy coups are at first. The people are almost always split. A nation without its people's support is not a nation at all

Well, your nation is an artificial one, so maybe you're right on that one.
But mine has it's base on blood and history. That's why we have a country based on it.
And that's why it's going to carry on.

I have the power of being unconcerned with collateral, following only my own will, and a capacity to adapt and make the most of what I've got every step of the way. Those aren't light strengths... whether you respect me or not is irrelevant to my ability to gut you. May all governments die of a thousand paper cuts and may all of those who believe their people to be weak continue to do so. Governments should be afraid of their people

You are going to gut me? I don't think that you can even slaughter a chicken.
Governments are the people. What is a government without the people doing the paperwork? What is the government without the people who supply it's electricity? However, without governance, none of these would work in any kind of harmony. That is what a government should try to archieve. However, you seek to destroy harmony in your selfish pursuits.
Selfishness is not going to give you any kind of fulfillment, I can tell you that.

If you work for an ideal: how do you make money?

I make money for living. However, I live my life towards that goal, that ideal. It is uncertain if it'll be accomplished in my lifetime, but I strive for my sons and grandsons to see it become reality.
What do you strive for? Really?
You are, according to how you describe yourself, an outcast. Someone who is not deemed to be acceptable according to social norms. You are not fit to work in higher places, you are not fit to have children, you are not fit to do anything that makes society really progress.
Is that why you hate society? Is that why you have chosen the easier path?
I think so. And I still think that you can't hurt a fly.

[reverendjeremiah]

[kılıç_mehmet]

No. That is a specific anarchism called "Anarcho-primitivism", which is not very popular. Anarcho-syndicalism is VERY technology friendly...it's even nicknamed "techno-anarchy". I will also point out that there is also another form of governing close to Syndicalism called "Technocracy".

And really, how do you expect for technology to progress if there is no funding?
Who will fund technology? You?

Many anarchists are very bright and educated and enjoy technology.

Not to mention you made yet ANOTHER mistake in your posting. You have equated law and order with technology.

Well, we all enjoy technology. However without funding, technology won't really progress more than it has now.

Yes they can and yes they do. A very quick example is mercenaries, or guns for hire. Of course, I dispise mercs. Any army system you can think of can exist without a government. In other words, military is MILITARY. They have their own comand structure. Surely you, being the military buff that you are, should understand this?

Mercenaries are guns for hire. However, they are guns for hire. They are not loyal to any governments, people, or anyone besides their own pockets.
You expect such people to guard your property and lives?
Military is not simply military. My military is made up of my own people. Not by anyone elses. And those are the only ones I'd ever trust.

The militia won the American Revolutionary war and rubbed the king of Englands face in his own shit over 200 years ago. The government of America back in that day was barely starting, so they depended on individuals coming forward and doing what they could to revolt against the government that enthralled them.

And they worked towards the goal of setting up a government themselves.
Because they too knew that without governance, nothing will work in the first place.
They also wrote a bill of rights, amendments and etc, important documents that govern your law and governance even today.

LOL. You mean to tell me that a cop will take a bullet for me? LMFAO! That sentence was rather naive of you.

A cop might stop that person from firing a bullet however.
Like imagine yourself being raped. The rapist has a gun. No one comes to your help. However the police has to, because that's what they are for.
And again, these are the ones who bring offenders to justice.
Law and justice is the basis of property.
And the police are there to enforce it.

.and how will this differ if the guy next door to YOU, in your government run country, does the same thing and builds a militia big anough to split the country in half? In other words, how is that ANY different from the chances you are taking right now in your heavily governed state?

They split the country in half. Icecream eaters are on the one side, non-eaters are on the other. And they both will enact laws in accordance with eachother and set up different governments.
In any case, a government will be set up.
I'll give you an example from our own war of independence.
Before we started to really battle the invaders besides small gangs that fought them by means of guerilla warfare, which didn't really halt their advance by any margain, our founding fathers first set up a government to actually do things properly. This government provided the basis for the later Turkish government, after we won the war.
This would not have been possible if decisions were not made in an orderly fashion, and with good governance.

I point you back up to my original quote that a military has its own internal command structure independent of STATE government.

Indeed, however the military strives to protect the state and it's people. Not itself.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL...OMG....honestly. You think companies obey laws? You think wallstreet follows regulations? Look up East India Company.

And this is the reason you want to abolish laws and regulations?
I think this is only the case where laws and regulations are not properly enforced, or are being lax, because of the selfish interests of others, like yourself. I'm sure you would also give a blind eye to any companies that would stuff your pockets with the green.
Corruption occurs when people flaunt the law. However, removing the law does not make corruption less corrupt because it's not defined by a law anymore.

then that basically means you are an asshole doesnt it? You are telling me that you would willing do horrible and bad things because there is no government to stop you.

Maybe not me. But someone would. And without laws, government and any assorted things that make them reconsider each of their moves, who can say how they will behave.

Syndicalism gives everyone an equal share of the pie. they will have what they need. If someone wants more, how long do you think they will get before someone stops them? How about Germany? They went from decent republic to Fascism in leass than 5 years. What was the protection that their former government good for?

Equal share? You think that you will have an equal share in a place with no law and order? You surely are delusional. Besides, what are you sharing, exactly? What is this pie you speak of? What are you trading?
What are you producing? What exactly is this pie?

you speak of government as if it is something permanent and protective. Yet an elementary pass through the governments of history reveal that all governments fail, and are sometimes IMMEDIATELY usurped by unsavory folk like the Nazi's.

However, the Nazis were aware of certain things like ethnic loyalties. And they built their country along these lines. And well, Germany did actually rise quickly after they gave the triple entente the finger.
This is because Germany was harmonized very, very quickly. A strict authority was set up, and the pure fire of nationalism too, drove people to work towards a common goal.

All you are doing is wringing your hands at me in that post. there is not one single guarentee for or against any type of government system.

And in your world, there is no guarantee for anything. Not even for running water, electricity, or food in grocery stores.
There is only the most base law of nature.
What if I own large foodstocks with my family, and you are forced to buy them from me so you can survive? And you are compelled to work in slaving conditions in the business of another family, and buy scarce food from me for outrageous prices? Do you hope for the free market to do it's magic on them?

What if your neighbor decides to up and murder you in the night? Where was your government and law and order to help you then?

He/she will be brought to justice. He/she will pay for that crime.
And in your world?
Who will bring the murderer to justice? A relative of yours? If your relatives are like you, I'm not sure if they'll even care if you get killed by anyone as to actually avenge your blood.

And, as usual, you completely get anarchy wrong. Have you even looked it up? Have you done ANY research on it? I think quite a few things will run on their own. If people are willing to do things, then it will get done. If people are NOT willing to do things, then I suggest slavery is being forced upon the masses if they are forced to do such things.

Whatever research I'll make about it, if it states an absurd, and far-fetched idea of removing the government, laws and state, and hope for people to act reasonably in a world where there is no guarantee for anything, is not going to change my mind.

Nothing will run on it's own. You can perhaps automatize major aspects of the industry. However you cannot do the same with major parts of the civil industry. You cannot do that without an environment with full abundance. And frankly, with the selfish worldview that you propagate, I'm not sure that we will ever see it either.

[reverendjeremiah]

And really, how do you expect for technology to progress if there is no funding?
Who will fund technology? You?

If I had an equal portion of the pie?
YES
I would also be a member of the electrical syndicate, which would mean that I would directly and actively be cooperating with other members of the same syndicate, and other syndicates to create new technology. I would have an equal share in all technological gizmos that you love to play with, and would work to build them.

Why is that hard for you to understand?

the word "funding" would have no meaning in a syndicalist system though, as money would be abolished. A syndicate is almost always NON-capitalist.

Well, we all enjoy technology. However without funding, technology won't really progress more than it has now.

Necessity is the mother of invention, not funding. You have been duped into the monetary system and believing that it is necessary for human progress even though it is directly responsible for poverty.

Mercenaries are guns for hire. However, they are guns for hire. They are not loyal to any governments, people, or anyone besides their own pockets.
You expect such people to guard your property and lives?

First off, I said I dont trust mercs. I was merely using them as an example that military and government can exist without each other,

Second, Syndicalists believe that property is theft. Why would they hire guards to watch their property when they think that way? Why would I also hire guards to watch something that everyone else equally owns? As far as my life... I have crossed nobody. capitalists require guards because they fuck people over all the time. A syndicalist is open armed. "Do you need food? Here, have some of mine." Why would I need guards in a syndicalist majority nation? Why would there be so much stealing in a nation where everyone owns an equal share of the pie? Why cant you understand this?

Military is not simply military. My military is made up of my own people. Not by anyone elses. And those are the only ones I'd ever trust.

I work with the military on a day to day basis, and I have even worked with NATO. Military has its own agenda and rules regardless of wether a government or state exists. why cant you understand this? If the american government fell to shit, the millitary could easily take over. Some citizens say the military has already taken over, since they make up the vast majority of our economy. I tend to agree with them. Its hard to hide that in a capitalist system, that the majority owners/controlers of wealth are the rulers.

And they worked towards the goal of setting up a government themselves.
Because they too knew that without governance, nothing will work in the first place.
They also wrote a bill of rights, amendments and etc, important documents that govern your law and governance even today.

Really? You knew what they were thinking back then? You must be a powerful psychic to read the minds of thousands of dead people from 200 years ago.

Tell me... what am I thinking right now?

They also bickered like hell over those bill of rights, and many of them distrusted each other in congress from what I have read from their autobiographies. It is also known that they boarded up the windows of the building they discussed their new found government in that was supposed to be "for the people, by the people." Benajmin Franklin wasnt trusted by anyone to be by himself, so he was spied upon because he openly spoke of what went on behind those borded up windows. And how about those slaves they all owned. Sure. those laws really helped those law makers get more wealthy didnt they?
Yeah. Just a handful of people come together representing everyone in the country. Sure... everyone agreed with them. Including the black people, women, non-christians, and the natives.

A cop might stop that person from firing a bullet however.
Like imagine yourself being raped. The rapist has a gun. No one comes to your help. However the police has to, because that's what they are for.
And again, these are the ones who bring offenders to justice.
Law and justice is the basis of property.
And the police are there to enforce it.

..and a spaceship may use its force fields to protect me from that bullet as well. You have WAY too much faith in the police. Ever seen a cop stand around and do nothing? ever seen a cop break the law? Honestly man, why do I even have to point this out to you.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but how old are you? Seriously, Im not trying to mock you. I just want to know your age.

And this is the reason you want to abolish laws and regulations?
I think this is only the case where laws and regulations are not properly enforced, or are being lax, because of the selfish interests of others, like yourself. I'm sure you would also give a blind eye to any companies that would stuff your pockets with the green.
Corruption occurs when people flaunt the law. However, removing the law does not make corruption less corrupt because it's not defined by a law anymore.

SELFISH?

Look man, if you are not going to pay attention to what I post then I will no longer discuss this with you. I have SEVERAL times posted that I believe that ALL people deserve an equal share of the pie. How is that selfish?

No, honestly. explain to me how that is selfish.

Maybe not me. But someone would. And without laws, government and any assorted things that make them reconsider each of their moves, who can say how they will behave.

Then you admit that someone would do these things regardless. Which means that government or no government it is going to happen regardless.

Did you remember that i said "equal share of the pie" when you made that? Or are you ignoring my posts?

Equal share? You think that you will have an equal share in a place with no law and order? You surely are delusional. Besides, what are you sharing, exactly? What is this pie you speak of? What are you trading?
What are you producing? What exactly is this pie?

After everything I have pointed out, including your blind faith in the police, you have very little ground to stand on calling someone delusional.
ALL property.
****Please pay CLOSE attention to me right now****
Property is theft.
Every human on this planet deserves an equal share of the planets resources along with the outcome of those resources.
There will ALWAYS be miscreants in society wether you have a government or not

However, the Nazis were aware of certain things like ethnic loyalties

...something you have expressed sympathies for. Syndicalists see ethnicity as a mere roll of the dice, something people cannot choose, and therefore a non-factor in societies determination.

And they built their country along these lines. And well, Germany did actually rise quickly after they gave the triple entente the finger.
This is because Germany was harmonized very, very quickly. A strict authority was set up, and the pure fire of nationalism too, drove people to work towards a common goal.

And they fell hard and fast as well. And yes they DROVE people in that direction. they FORCED them to do it.

I say again, if you arent willing to do it, then it is slavery.

If you are DRIVEN to do it, then you are not an individual. You are a puppet.

And in your world, there is no guarantee for anything. Not even for running water, electricity, or food in grocery stores.
There is only the most base law of nature.
What if I own large foodstocks with my family, and you are forced to buy them from me so you can survive? And you are compelled to work in slaving conditions in the business of another family, and buy scarce food from me for outrageous prices? Do you hope for the free market to do it's magic on them?

You didnt even read my examples of the syndicate did you? You are still using the words "buy", yet you speak of them as if they are in my world view. My world view has no want for money. How many times must I explain it to you?
I doubt I will respond to another post such as this. You have shown in this post that you didnt read and/or understand my last posts.

If you refuse to even read or understand what I post, then I will refuse to read and answer yours.

[theVOID]

If I had an equal portion of the pie?
YES

You should have a portion of the pie relative to the value of your contributions. The problem is your proposed system has no non-arbitrary way to assign value.

I would also be a member of the electrical syndicate, which would mean that I would directly and actively be cooperating with other members of the same syndicate, and other syndicates to create new technology. I would have an equal share in all technological gizmos that you love to play with, and would work to build them.

And who is going to pay you in the mean time? Who is going to provide the capital needed for the infrastructure and other initial costs? If you're getting a share of the value of the finished product then what of your wages before this venture yields some technology of value that other people are willing to trade resources for? You're going to need investors, some persons to lend you resources in the interim for start-up capital and wages, and the only reason any company, investor or syndicate is going to want to do that is if they get something in return for their loss of resources.

the word "funding" would have no meaning in a syndicalist system though, as money would be abolished. A syndicate is almost always NON-capitalist.

Oh, so someone giving you resources to start the venture and provide for the persons involved in the interim magically isn't funding if you've got a no-money system?

And what are you going to use to endow people with value to exchange for that which they desire? Is there going to be some arbitrator who decides what it is the people need, or do you have to write a letter with a request and see how much of the allotted pool of resources is available to provide you with the items you seek?

Syndicalists believe that property is theft.

Property is theft? So if you make a guitar and claim ownership of it then you've "stolen" from someone?

Why would they hire guards to watch their property when they think that way?

99.99% of people DO NOT think that way and telling them that they should or must is NEVER going to work. If someone spends their time working towards some material end, be that exchanging the proceeds of their productivity for other goods or crafting goods of their own then they will see that object as their property, you have absolutely no right to tell them otherwise.

Why would I also hire guards to watch something that everyone else equally owns? As far as my life... I have crossed nobody.

Oh right, because that's the only reason people ever get killed

capitalists require guards because they fuck people over all the time.

Sure, and no socialists ever had protection!

A syndicalist is open armed. "Do you need food? Here, have some of mine."

No, a generous person is open armed, it doesn't matter one iota what system of government they are operating under, the attitude of a person being such that they would freely give their own resources to another person is something that runs much deeper than the facade of politics. Encouraging more of this behavior is apolitical.

Why would I need guards in a syndicalist majority nation?

Maybe the people who can paint two walls in the time their colleague can do one but is no better off for it are pissed off. Maybe the people who have ideas for goods/services which improve the lives of a great number of people are pissed off when their ideas are stolen by the collective and given to other people.

Why would there be so much stealing in a nation where everyone owns an equal share of the pie?

Because some people want more, there are people who are inherently greedy who will steal, irrespective of their circumstances. Changing a political system will do absolutely nothing to change this fact of nature, the only appropriate response is to punish those who take resources from other people without consent.

I work with the military on a day to day basis, and I have even worked with NATO. Military has its own agenda and rules regardless of wether a government or state exists. why cant you understand this? If the american government fell to shit, the millitary could easily take over. Some citizens say the military has already taken over, since they make up the vast majority of our economy. I tend to agree with them. Its hard to hide that in a capitalist system, that the majority owners/controlers of wealth are the rulers.

I agree with this, but it has more to do with the level of centralized control that exists than anything else, when the government or a collective (and subsequently the military) have authority over the rights and lives of other people then there always exists the opportunity for such a thing.

[Violet]

Well, if I were weak, would you throw me out to the dogs?
That's so much for the fairness of your worldview.

No... I'd (smiling) invite you to the shelter of my syndicate. If you from there betrayed my trust: why should I pity you for receiving your just desserts?

Yes, you certainly talk big.

Of course. I am me, after all If you were looking for pathetic, it's everyone in pink who is restricted to the gauntlet

Yeah, you certainly watched either too many movies, or played too many video games.

Or played with explosives as a kid. Ever been to the boonies of alaska?

Nothing quite beats the fun of rolling a flaming gasoline-filled tire down a 130 foot bluff with a bomb in it. Give me some C4/<insert other strong explosive here>, and I promise you an invading army will be hurting real bad. Quite a rush, explosives.

You wouldn't even find the supplies that you need to carry out your current life if you were living *your world*.

Carry out my current life? You confuse me. I want not for food, for water, for shelter. All I require from others is my medical procedures and hormones. Everything else can go fuck itself

Well, your nation is an artificial one, so maybe you're right on that one.
But mine has it's base on blood and history. That's why we have a country based on it.
And that's why it's going to carry on.

Artificial? What nation is not artificial?

History is a fairytale. However bloody it be dependent only upon the author(s). The reason you have a country is that you currently have (or quite recently had) a force of power that deigns to call itself such a thing as a country. 'Tain't 'bout history 'tall, just about who's got it and who doesn't got it.

You are going to gut me? I don't think that you can even slaughter a chicken.
Governments are the people. What is a government without the people doing the paperwork? What is the government without the people who supply it's electricity? However, without governance, none of these would work in any kind of harmony. That is what a government should try to archieve. However, you seek to destroy harmony in your selfish pursuits.
Selfishness is not going to give you any kind of fulfillment, I can tell you that.

Much as I'd like to respond to your trollishness (I've assisted in the butchering of a pig, 2 moose, and a few rabbits), I simply don't give a fuck. It's only fun to respond to trolls while they're being fun. Otherwise: no point

[kılıç_mehmet]

No... I'd (smiling) invite you to the shelter of my syndicate. If you from there betrayed my trust: why should I pity you for receiving your just desserts?

Yeah, whatever dude. You speak just nonsense now.

Or played with explosives as a kid. Ever been to the boonies of alaska?

Nothing quite beats the fun of rolling a flaming gasoline-filled tire down a 130 foot bluff with a bomb in it. Give me some C4/<insert other strong explosive here>, and I promise you an invading army will be hurting real bad. Quite a rush, explosives.

Then go and build yourself your own empire somewhere in some lone mountains and declare anarchy. Let's see how you deal with anyone who wants to break your back.

Carry out my current life? You confuse me. I want not for food, for water, for shelter. All I require from others is my medical procedures and hormones. Everything else can go fuck itself

Good for you.

Artificial? What nation is not artificial?

Mine isn't.

History is a fairytale. However bloody it be dependent only upon the author(s). The reason you have a country is that you currently have (or quite recently had) a force of power that deigns to call itself such a thing as a country. 'Tain't 'bout history 'tall, just about who's got it and who doesn't got it.

That force is us. The people who see themselves as the people of this country.
If we didn't aspire for our own country, we wouldn't really have fought any invaders anyways. But we did. And most of us integrated from the lands we previously lived to this land which was the land of the Turks.

Much as I'd like to respond to your trollishness (I've assisted in the butchering of a pig, 2 moose, and a few rabbits), I simply don't give a fuck. It's only fun to respond to trolls while they're being fun. Otherwise: no point

Nice, you've assisted in the butchering of a few animals. But I still think that you're soft. And you are, as a matter of fact.

[bozo]

[reverendjeremiah]

[theVOID]