Questions for theists.

[ElDinero]

Not doing what is right is always not doing what is right.

Is that a yes?

[fr0d0]

Yeah...but if you do something that's "not right" in pursuit of doing something that is, do you still deserve to be punished?

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For eternity?

White lies ....protect the vulnerable. I don't see there's an excuse. I stand to be corrected on that.

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"All things will be drawn to him". Nothing resists [into eternity].

[thesummerqueen]

I kill a man in defense of my child. Same deal? What's vulnerable?

[5thHorseman]

No, the rules will no doubt change...... to coincide with their views.

[fr0d0]

Killing isn't necessarily murder/ It could be just.

Vulnerable: I was thinking of my Mums scary advice that if some bloke approched me when I was out alone I should lie and say my parents were just over 'there'.

[5thHorseman]

Anyway.



Thank you Fr0d0, Rayaan and Godschild for answering my questions, I am sincerely thankful that you did. :-).


Lucent, take note, you don't have to derail every thread, the questions were simple, like you.

[Jaysyn]

"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry

Lie #1

"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." - U.S. Supreme Court Chief Justice, John Jay

Misrepresentation #1

John Jay, one of the framers of the Constitution, was appointed by George Washington in 1789 to be the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of the United States (and later served two terms as governor of New York). He wrote, in a private letter (1816) to Pennsylvania House of Representatives member John Murray:

It certainly is very desirable that a pacific disposition should prevail among all nations. The most effectual way of producing it is by extending the prevalence and influence of the gospel. Real Christians will abstain from violating the rights of others, and therefore will not provoke war.

Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God." John Adams

Lie #2

God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the Gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed, I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever; That a revolution of the wheel of fortune, a change of situation, is among possible events; that it may become probable by Supernatural influence! The Almighty has no attribute which can take side with us. Thomas Jefferson

Disingeneous Misrepresentation #2

There Are Actually Two Versions of This. The mere fact that there are two versions of it is a good indication it has problems.

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Version #1

"The God who gave us life gave us liberty... Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction... That these liberties are the gift of God? The bible is the cornerstone for American liberty." -Thomas Jefferson

Version #2

"And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that His justice cannot sleep forever." Thomas Jefferson

Beginning with the first version:

First problem is that this quote is not cited, i.e., its origin isn't stated--probably for the reason that it doesn't appear in Thomas Jefferson's works as quoted. If you break it into pieces, you can find some of the pieces in Jefferson's works.

[1]"The God who gave us life gave us liberty. . . [2]Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction. . . That these liberties are the gift of God? [3]The bible is the cornerstone for American liberty." -Thomas Jefferson

Part [1]

We can find the first phrase in Jefferson's 1774 publication to the English king, A Summary View of the Rights of British America. Notice that by extracting only part of Jefferson's entire phrase, the manufacturer of this invalid quote, gives it a different slant than Jefferson's original. Also notice that the rest of the problematic quotation isn't found in the document.

. . .This, sire, is the advice of your great American council, on the observance of which may perhaps depend your felicity and future fame, and the preservation of that harmony which alone can continue both to Great Britain and America the reciprocal advantages of their connection. It is neither our wish, nor our interest, to separate from her. We are willing, on our part, to sacrifice every thing which reason can ask to the restoration of that tranquillity for which all must wish. On their part, let them be ready to establish union and a generous plan. Let them name their terms, but let them be just. Accept of every commercial preference it is in our power to give for such things as we can raise for their use, or they make for ours. But let them not think to exclude us from going to other markets to dispose of those commodities which they cannot use, or to supply those wants which they cannot supply. Still less let it be proposed that our properties within our own territories shall be taxed or regulated by any power on earth but our own. The God who gave us life gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them. This, sire, is our last, our determined resolution; and that you will be pleased to interpose with that efficacy which your earnest endeavours may ensure to procure redress of these our great grievances, to quiet the minds of your subjects in British America, against any apprehensions of future encroachment, to establish fraternal love and harmony through the whole empire, and that these may continue to the latest ages of time, is the fervent prayer of all British America! . . .

Source of Document:

University of Virginia Library Electronic Text Center Jefferson, Thomas, 1743-1826. A Summary View of the Rights of British America, p. 122, Electronic Text Center, University of Virginia Library

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James Madison 4th president

"Cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

Common Mis-attribution #1

Princeton, 1746 - Associated with the Great Awakening, Princeton was founded by the Presbyterians in 1746. Rev. Jonathan Dickinson became its first president, declaring, "cursed be all that learning that is contrary to the cross of Christ."

[fr0d0]

Not doing what is right is always not doing what is right.

Is that a yes?

Sorry, missed you Eld

That would pretty much sum it up, sure.

[Minimalist]

Xtians can't resist lying for their godboy. It isn't as if they had a commandment against it after all.....oh, wait. Problem detected.

Well anyway, it never slowed them down. As Eusebius wrote in his Praeparatio Evangelica:

is there any falsehood that he could have told more beneficial than this, and better able to make them all do everything that is just, not by compulsion but willingly?

Lie to the sheep and the will gladly follow. Just look at the flock of losers we have gathered here whining about their fucking god.

[Welsh cake]

One problem is that your questions are highly fallacious

You don't seem to know what the label "fallacy" even means, as demonstrated by your own ignorant omission of a post.

1) as an atheist, what will happen when I die because I reject faith and superstition, through lack of evidence.

fallacy #1

Equating faith and superstituion, coming to the fallacious conclusion that they are both to be rejected for lack of evidence

Horseman is not equating them, he's itemising what he rejects. Do you not comprehend good sentence structure and the English Language in general?

2) what will happen to my children as they haven't been christened, baptised or genitally mutilated?

fallacy 2, equating baptism with genital mutilation and being christined

HE IS NOT EQUATING THEM, you daft tit.

4) because atheists are not gullible enough to believe things without proof and we cannot force ourselves to believe,(I have tried) would god be nice to us because of this?

fallacy 3 to say belief in God requires gullibility.

Faith IS gullibility.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OCYhDFc42I

4, to say that there is no proof for belief in God.

That's not a fallacy, that's a fact, an observation of reality, a statement of the painfully obvious.

5, that you need to force yourself to believe

You cannot sensibly force yourself to believe the world is flat lucent when you know for a fact that it is not. Unless, of course, you are fucking insane and/or have brain damage.

6, that evidence is the reason you don't know God

We don't know any God. A lack of evidence for its existence and no concise positive ontology mean we remain in the default position of disbelief.

And to save my eyeballs from turning black I just ignored the rest of your bullshit...