The unforgivable sin (long)

[Justtristo]

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass about this but do you have any reliable numbers to back this up? I'm talking about statistics from studies that have not been influenced in any way by either a religious group or an atheist group (a group without any agenda but to take in data.

You raised a good point, I don't know if there are any statistics that have been done about this. However this forum is full of people who used to be Christians who are no Atheists. On somewhere like Christianforums.com there arent many who were once atheists and who were once Christians.

[fr0d0]

I would say that most atheists have a childish & therefore non understanding of what Christianity is, so ex Christian is in 99% of cases meaningless.

[Faith No More]

Right, because if you're an ex Christian you must not have understood Christianity. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

[Ziploc Surprise]

Right, because if you're an ex Christian you must not have understood Christianity. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

I don't have any numbers on this but there are people who have been deconverted by theology. I am one of them -and believe me I studied. I know more about Christianity than most pastors- and there is an individual in Austin TX who deconverted in divinity school. He has a tv talk show now http://www.atheist-experience.com/

As I said before I don't know if people like us are anomalies or not. We exist, but in what numbers I have no numbers to show.

[Blam!]

Right, because if you're an ex Christian you must not have understood Christianity. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

Uh well.
I disowned Christianity just not because of my ignorance nor misconceptions of Christianity[well, it may not case for most of former Christians], I left Christianity because of lack of evidence, baseless faith and burden of proof.

This Christians' retarded assertion that there is no former Christians, never was. Probably because they have belief with god being omniscient with our destiny and future.

I've been awake for 32 hours, and was about to take my nap. Blam! I had to reply. Thanks for insomnia, Faith No More.

[Minimalist]

I would say that most atheists have a childish & therefore non understanding of what Christianity is, so ex Christian is in 99% of cases meaningless.

How better to comprehend childish fairy tales, frods?

You can pretend, like G-C does, that there is great wisdom in this shit but you are only fooling yourself.

We have dismissed it and moved on.

I mean really...what kind of demented mind takes shit like this seriously

Mark 3: 28 Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

Oh, yeah G-C and those of his ilk.

[Godscreated]

Mark 3:22-30 and Lk. 12:10 will give you your answers.

Umm, have you been following along with this thread? My point is that Mark 3:22-30 and Lk. 12:10 and any other passage in the Bible do not give us the answers, else we would all have a clear understanding of what the unforgivable sin is.

The passages are clear, just because you want to ignore them or not understand them doesn't mean they are not clear. By the way what makes you think I was not following the OP, gave you exactly what you ask for.

Scripture is an interpreted thing. Some scripture passages are easy to interpret, other's are not. My beef is that possibly one of the more important scripture passages in the Bible does not have a clear meaning and the Christian religion has not come to complete agreement on it. The longer this thread goes on the more it displays the different interpretations people have over this very important scripture.

How much easier do you need these passages to be, have you even read them. Why don't you determine for yourself what the scripture says, that is if you are really looking for the truth.

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Every now and then an atheist gets saved.

Posted by A Lurker on August 17, 1999 at 18:30:46:

In Reply to: Christians conversions from atheism? posted by Chelonian on August 17, 1999 at 17:00:34:

You should have fun with this one- this is the founder of the ex-atheists for jesus site-

Your point being exactly?

Anyway there are many more atheists who were once Christians than there are Christians who were former Atheists.

I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass about this but do you have any reliable numbers to back this up? I'm talking about statistics from studies that have not been influenced in any way by either a religious group or an atheist group (a group without any agenda but to take in data.)

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Every now and then an atheist gets saved.

Posted by A Lurker on August 17, 1999 at 18:30:46:

In Reply to: Christians conversions from atheism? posted by Chelonian on August 17, 1999 at 17:00:34:

You should have fun with this one- this is the founder of the ex-atheists for jesus site-

Sanjay Merchant - Los Angeles

At one time in my life I considered myself an atheist. At least I thought that I was an atheist. However, I often struggled with the hypocrisy that I saw in my life due to the difficulties with actually living out atheism. From a detached "intellectual" point of view it's easy to wave your hand and proclaim, "there is no God because there is no proof of his existence." Yet most atheists are really shaking an angry fist in spite of the evidence which they know to exist.

You see, it's easy to claim atheism, but it's difficult to live atheism. I'll explain this later on. But first, I'll explain some things for those who don't know what atheism is about. The word "atheist" literally means, "without God". In other words, the nature of man, his moral standards (or lack thereof) and purpose can be explained outside of the recognition of a creator. Most atheists believe that everything we see in existence is the result of natural, physical processes, which can be observed today.

For example, I believed in the "Big Bang" theory and Darwinian evolution. I believed in the "Big Bang" because I thought that it was a scientific explanation as to our existence, while religion was just full of myth. Through later research I found that the "Big Bang" is not science at all since it is not based on direct observation or testable methods. In contradiction, it is adhered to "religiously" by those who wish to purposely reject the idea of accountability and a moral standard. Some say, "Well God could have initiated the Big Bang." But by the time you get to Ylem (the supposed source of the bang) you've effectively eliminated any worshipable god from the picture (a very convenient trick for those who don't want God but can't disprove him; just make him really small). In turn, I had simply assumed this theory to be fact as my sixth grade teacher had told me it was so. We studied it along with the fact that the earth revolves around the sun, and that's certainly provable and accepted.

Similarly, I believed that my origins were found in evolution. This was superficially pleasing to me as it was an adequate method to explain away actions that I knew were immoral. Deep inside I was convinced that many of my actions were wrong, but evolution helped me to conveniently rationalize those fears. I was able to blame my actions on my "natural instincts". I would lie to my parents to better my own existence, I would hurt others to ease my own life and assert my dominance over rivals (survival of the fittest), and I would sleep with my girlfriend due to my animal instinct to procreate (though had we succeeded we would have had an abortion - logical?).

I had trouble, however, trying to explain the guilt and sickness I had felt when I knew that I had done what was wrong.

Another real problem arose for me when it came to discussing religion. I could calmly discuss the teachings of Mohammed or Buddha, but when it came to Jesus I became very angry. I thought that an atheist should act rationally and never get angry. After all, it was evolutionarily useless to become so mad, unless it preserved my life.

I argued with and harassed Christians without cause. I hated their joy and love for one another. I felt that they simply needed a crutch; they could have their crutch... I was man enough to face my death. But, I found that I was afraid of life. I hated almost everyone, especially myself... but of course, this was "natural".

One evening I went to a Christian Bible study to argue and set people straight, as I thought. I was convinced that I understood life even though I had never heard the Christian message. I simply believed the hypocrisy I had seen in the headlines, the strict regulations imposed by the Vatican and the hate spread by racists who said that they were Christians (its surprising to note the roots of racism lie in atheism, and are nowhere found in the Bible).

I met people who were nothing like I had imagined. I hung on every word of the speaker. I was in awe of his wisdom, while still attempting to disagree. At the end of the evening he asked if he could pray for me. I allowed him as I did not believe in prayer, but didn't want to be rude. As he finished I opened my eyes in amazement. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was as if I was a newborn... all my vain arguments and anger passed away. I no longer hated these people. I almost ran out in fear. That night I prayed for the first time. I asked Jesus to help me if he was able.

The next day I called my former best friend (I say former because he had become a Christian months before and after many arguments I decided to have no contact with him). He brought two other men that had been close friends of mine in the past also. They answered all my lingering questions and I understood about God for the first time. Afterwards, they prayed for me. I felt as if I had come into the presence of the Jesus that I had hated so much. I raised my hands to fight, but I felt that his arms were wide open... ready to forgive and help me. I broke down in tears and gave my life over to Jesus. I didn't join a religion or a church... I simply can to realize what happens when an atheist meets Jesus.

Perhaps it's better to interpret conversion and deconversion in the lens of underlying processes that cause someone to fall into and/or out of religion. Certain things influence decision making. For example feelings of guilt and shame. A need for a plausible explanation and perhaps system to deal with what you see as supernatural phenomena or experiences. A plausible and perhaps logical explanation for other things you may not fully understand like scientific theory (in this case what is plausible and logical to an individual is subjective, not objective. It relies on his or her ability/skill to reason and take in new information. Also it relies on how much information/education you had at the get go).

In the case above it seems clear that the person didn't have a solid understanding of science and the scientific theories he was battling with. When the bullshit of the fundies came his way he accepted it because it was easier for him to understand. In a similar way it's easier to explain to a cave man that his illness is caused by an evil spirit than to say that it's caused by a bacterial infection. It's less of a paradigm shift and intellectually easier to grasp.

Futhermore it seems he had prior to his conversion feelings of guilt and shame. Religion has ways of relieving you of these things. Jesus died for these things therefore do ______ and feel better. It's not mentioned that the relief of feelings of guilt and shame can be an addictive trap. I digress.

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I am the original poster. I was complaining that this very important scripture in the Bible is little understood. The evidence, though unsubstantiated by any statistical study, is nonetheless revealing itself through this thread. There have been several different interpretations posted so far. You say that the passages are clear. I say that if this is so then people would be able to easily interpret it.

Also, as I have mentioned before I have asked about the meaning of this scripture for 30 years and have gotten differing responses. It could be said that the results of my 30 years of questioning is an anomaly. This is a possible thing but at what point do you consider how probable it is?

I would like to hear the different responses you have received over the years if you have the time,I would like to run them through scripture to see if they may be valid.
In Mark Christ is accused of having an unclean spirit, He explains that He could not have such a unclean spirit and do the good things for the people, this work would be against the nature of such a spirit and work against the things the spirit looks to accomplish. Then Christ makes it clear to call one possessed of an unclean spirit who actually is guided by the Holy Spirit has blasphemed against the Holy Spirit.
In Luke Christ is affirming what was stated in Mark.
Though not explicitly stated in Mark, the rejection of the Holy Spirit for salvation is also blasphemy, the reason being the Holy Spirit is doing a good work through someone who is saved ie. a child of God.

[Minimalist]

The prosecution rests, your honor!

[fr0d0]

Right, because if you're an ex Christian you must not have understood Christianity. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

You know I was thinking of you when you posted that right FNM

You might be the rare exception. I didn't say 100% did I? I never have said "all atheists". I'm yet to be convinced, but I give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Faith No More]

Just giving you shit fr0d0. And while I do appreciate the benefit of the doubt, I am not an ex christian. By the time I was old enough to have my own religious identity, age 12 for me, I had decided Christianity was not for me.