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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 11:01 am
(November 11, 2011 at 7:00 am)chadster1976 Wrote: I do not have to believe in Hell to be a Christian.
So what was Jesus saving us from when he went to the cross then?
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 11:18 am
(This post was last modified: November 11, 2011 at 11:18 am by Voltair.)
I have not studied the issue out but I have heard from several people that they believe Hell was a later invention and was not original to early Christianity. I think their reasoning is more than just being "politically correct" but again I have not looked that far into it.
I also know of a universalist here at my school that believes sin corrupted the world. He does not believe in everlasting punishment but believes God is going to return and redeem the earth back to a heavenly state. He also thinks that God is ultimately going to wipe all evil away and so every soul will be purified. I may be misquoting him but I will admit it is a much more pleasant theology.
Essentially in that theology everybody wins and God simply wants to call things back to the beginning and no one gets the spanking. As nice as that would be I think it goes so far against the grain of scripture that I wonder where those ideas are grounded in. I think there is a lot of church tradition I am ignorant of and I of course question tradition all the same as well.
As far as I can tell if Christ died and there is no hell or no punishment for sin then he didn't have to die anyway. Without Hell there is no urgency to evangelize or convert anyone. Again I think the idea of everybody wins is nice but I really don't see how it is a sustainable idea given what the Bible is. Whether or not it was corrupted is besides the point because no cosmic being stopped its corruption if it was. So we are once again left with no way to confirm anything...which is why we are atheists, deists, and agnostics.
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 11:21 am
(This post was last modified: November 11, 2011 at 11:22 am by The Grand Nudger.)
Hell isn't really a "later invention". More an incorporation of other cultures beliefs onto the general framework of the afterlife. The OT has a nebulous view of the afterlife and a sort of "proto-hell", the NT describes a thoroughly hellenized version, and as christianity spreads into Europe we see the hell we all know and love.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 1:32 pm
(November 10, 2011 at 11:22 am)salty Wrote: Are you asking me this question because you are willing to follow the Lord? Let someone who is actually seeking ask me this question, because my answer won't make sense to someone that thinks they cannot control their beliefs.
Are you suggesting you CAN control your beliefs? Because that would be hilarious.
A challenge then, since you have such control over your beliefs: Become an atheist. You only have to become an atheist for 24 hours, then you can change yourself back into a Christian.
You can control your beliefs, so you'll find it no problem to believe that there is no God for 24 hours, and then believe it again after that time. Let me know how it goes.
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm
(This post was last modified: November 11, 2011 at 1:39 pm by Godscreated.)
(November 11, 2011 at 7:00 am)chadster1976 Wrote: What's wrong with acknowledging that Hell and much of all religions are facets of the political times at various stages of their development. I regard that skepticism as essential in the search for the truth which should surely take me closer to God (or away from him for all you atheists out there!).
Hell is not 80% of my religion. God's judgment does not have to be Hell. I do not have to believe in Hell to be a Christian.
You've been asked by deist and nonbelievers and now a christian if there is no hell then why was there a need for Christ to sacrifice Himself. Why is it that Christ, the One you say you trust, talked about hell many times. If there is no hell then where is justice, what is going to happen to nonbelievers? Maybe your problem is religion, a relationship with God is what a christian seeks. Hell has little importance for me personally, understanding why it exist is important, without it we could not understand God's justice and why there will be a judgement. It seems to me and this is just my opinion that you need a feel good God who fits your need to believe, sorry it does not work that way, God ask us to accept Him and then learn who He is. If we can not accept God in love and for who He truly is, then why?
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 3:00 pm
Godschild what does justice mean to you? I am not trying to attack you but rather asking what you would define it as? I am curious as to why you think Hell for simply not believing is justice?
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 3:04 pm
(November 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm)Godschild Wrote: If there is no hell then where is justice, what is going to happen to nonbelievers?
I'm just going to go ahead and accept the possibility that you may have meant this in a way that is completely counter to how it comes across......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 4:28 pm
(November 11, 2011 at 1:38 pm)Godschild Wrote: You've been asked by deist and nonbelievers and now a christian if there is no hell then why was there a need for Christ to sacrifice Himself. Why is it that Christ, the One you say you trust, talked about hell many times. If there is no hell then where is justice, what is going to happen to nonbelievers? Maybe your problem is religion, a relationship with God is what a christian seeks. Hell has little importance for me personally, understanding why it exist is important, without it we could not understand God's justice and why there will be a judgement. It seems to me and this is just my opinion that you need a feel good God who fits your need to believe, sorry it does not work that way, God ask us to accept Him and then learn who He is. If we can not accept God in love and for who He truly is, then why?
OK, mark your calenders everyone.
I agree with GC (except for the part about his idea of "justice").
If you call yourself a Christian, you can't pick and choose what parts of the Bible you like as if the book you regard as the Word of God is some kind of buffet table.
Either the Bible is the Word of God or it isn't.
Either Jesus "died for your sins" or he didn't.
Either we need to be saved or we don't.
There is no sorta-kinda option with Christianity.
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 4:39 pm
Me too, I feel dirty, it won't come off......... MUMMY!!!
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RE: Hell - Where is the idea of justice?
November 11, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Quote:Either the Bible is the Word of God or it isn't.
One vote for "isn't."
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