Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), Souls, and Atheism

[Willpower]

Re: Shell B

My question is regarding cardiac arrest patients. How do they have long and vivid "hallucinations?"

If you real my last post, I explained, in more detail, that for cardiac arrest patients:
"After the heart stops beating due to a significant reduction of blood flow, the pressures across the entire body and within the arteries and the veins reach a point in which they equalise within approximately 50 seconds. Studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds. This simply reflects a lack of brain function that is brought about due to a lack of blood flow into the brain. Brain oxygen levels are then depleted within approximately 2 minutes and if the blood flow is not restarted to the brain, the cells start to undergo changes which will ultimately lead to cell damage and then cell death. The first thing that happens is that the brain cells undergo a state of shock and this is brought about by a lack of oxygen."

Feel free to look it up. If you search google: "The Brain During Cardiac Arrest," you will see that what I am saying is accurate. The above quote is an excerpt from the Horizon Research Foundation: http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=84.

There is no brain function nor electrical activity within patients who have cardiac arrest, as medical research demonstrates and concurs.


Furthermore,
RE: "why the fuck would they have an EEG set up when treating for cardiac arrest?"
--People go into cardiac arrest while on bed-watch in the hospital.

[Minimalist]

you are fucking dead.

[Shell B]

Re: Shell B

My question is regarding cardiac arrest patients. How do they have long and vivid "hallucinations?"

If you real my last post, I explained, in more detail, that for cardiac arrest patients:
"After the heart stops beating due to a significant reduction of blood flow, the pressures across the entire body and within the arteries and the veins reach a point in which they equalise within approximately 50 seconds. Studies have shown that due to a lack of heart beat and blood flow there is a cessation of brain electrical activity within approximately 10 seconds. This simply reflects a lack of brain function that is brought about due to a lack of blood flow into the brain. Brain oxygen levels are then depleted within approximately 2 minutes and if the blood flow is not restarted to the brain, the cells start to undergo changes which will ultimately lead to cell damage and then cell death. The first thing that happens is that the brain cells undergo a state of shock and this is brought about by a lack of oxygen."

Feel free to look it up. If you search google: "The Brain During Cardiac Arrest," you will see that what I am saying is accurate. The above quote is an excerpt from the Horizon Research Foundation: http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=84.

There is no brain function nor electrical activity within patients who have cardiac arrest, as medical research demonstrates and concurs.

You didn't have to repeat yourself. Again, how do they have "long and vivid" hallucinations? Define long.

--People go into cardiac arrest while on bed-watch in the hospital.

Yes. How often do you think brain activity ceases for any significant period of time and does not result in actual death? How much brain activity do you think the EEG actually reads? How does a person who is dead for a mere moment or two have a near death experience that lasts a long time? How do we know that the experience did not occur during the inevitable unconscious time that preceded or followed the momentary loss of readable brain activity?

[Willpower]

Re: Shell B

Re: Define "Long"
--Length can be ascertained by the length of their account of their experience, and the level of detail of their account. Otherwise, NDE experiencers can tell you how long it subjectively felt. It is a subjective experience so I don't know how I would be able to objectively tell you how long each experience is. At the best, the research can make account for how long the person was physiologically dead.

RE: "How much brain activity do you think the EEG actually reads?"
--It's not just the EEG that indicates the person has no brain activity; it the cumulative of circumstances that an individual undergoes during a cardiac arrest, that makes a person lose brain function--as described in the quote I provided you. Feel free to look up and review that research if you believe it to be faulty.

RE: "How do we know that the experience did not occur during the inevitable unconscious time that preceded or followed the momentary loss of readable brain activity?"
--From the moment that a person undergoes a cardiac arrest (which catches individuals off-guard), their blood circulation rapidly drops, and their brain function/activity approaches zero. At best, there would be the opportunity for distorted perception as everything speeds to a halt--but this would be far from creating such a vivid, real, and memorable experience.

It is intriguing that these spontaneous "hallucinations" have many similarities.
People experiencing NDEs often experience:
~A sense of peace, well-being and painlessness. Positive emotions. A feeling of being removed from the world
~An intense feeling of unconditional love (in positive NDEs).
~Being given a life review (look up "life review" if you don't know what that is).
~Being given a decision by oneself or others to return to one's body, often accompanied by a reluctance to return (in positive NDEs).


I believe that it would be a wild assertion to state that a person with rapidly-depleting brain function would be able to muster, and furthermore vividly remember, such a strong and often life-changing "hallucination"--a "hallucination" that coincidentally happens to be very similar to that of thousands of other people who also have had near-death experiences.

[Skeptical_Nurse]

Hes catholic...Bring on those wacky myths

[IATIA]

Dreams and hallucinations drastically distort our perception of time. NDE is similar in nature and what seems to be a 'long' time is just seconds long. I have had dreams that seem to last for hours or more and this is after waking, noting it was not time to get up and went back to sleep for 30-40 minutes, during which time I usually dream.

The reason 'everyone' sees the same NDE is because we are built the same and the physiology is the same and the breakdown of the senses is the same.

[Shell B]

--Length can be ascertained by the length of their account of their experience, and the level of detail of their account. Otherwise, NDE experiencers can tell you how long it subjectively felt. It is a subjective experience so I don't know how I would be able to objectively tell you how long each experience is. At the best, the research can make account for how long the person was physiologically dead.

Have you ever tried to guess the length of a dream? I would assume these supposed near death experiences are much like that. It cannot be done by the person who experienced it.

It's not just the EEG that indicates the person has no brain activity; it the cumulative of circumstances that an individual undergoes during a cardiac arrest, that makes a person lose brain function--as described in the quote I provided you. Feel free to look up and review that research if you believe it to be faulty.

Yep. I read your first two posts on the subject. I do not need to look it up. The point is that it is impossible to tell if a person is having absolutely no brain function whatsoever during cardiac arrest. Even your posts indicate that it takes a few seconds for this mechanism to begin. From what you are posting, it sounds like you expect this goes on for 15-20 minutes and more. The fact of the matter is that you have to bounce back from cardiac arrest rather quickly to survive. There is more time spent unconscious for survivors than time spent actually near death.

--From the moment that a person undergoes a cardiac arrest (which catches individuals off-guard), their blood circulation rapidly drops, and their brain function/activity approaches zero. At best, there would be the opportunity for distorted perception as everything speeds to a halt--but this would be far from creating such a vivid, real, and memorable experience.

Oh, give me a break. I have had lucid dreams while half awake. People trip balls while fully awake. It is entirely possible to hallucinate while losing consciousness.

I believe that it would be a wild assertion to state that a person with rapidly-depleting brain function would be able to muster, and furthermore vividly remember, such a strong and often life-changing "hallucination"--a "hallucination" that coincidentally happens to be very similar to that of thousands of other people who also have had near-death experiences.

Bah. It suits your conclusions, so it "intrigues" you. If you ever ate 'shrooms, you wouldn't doubt the brain's ability to totally mind fuck you.

[Skeptical_Nurse]

--Length can be ascertained by the length of their account of their experience, and the level of detail of their account. Otherwise, NDE experiencers can tell you how long it subjectively felt. It is a subjective experience so I don't know how I would be able to objectively tell you how long each experience is. At the best, the research can make account for how long the person was physiologically dead.

Have you ever tried to guess the length of a dream? I would assume these supposed near death experiences are much like that. It cannot be done by the person who experienced it.

It's not just the EEG that indicates the person has no brain activity; it the cumulative of circumstances that an individual undergoes during a cardiac arrest, that makes a person lose brain function--as described in the quote I provided you. Feel free to look up and review that research if you believe it to be faulty.

Yep. I read your first two posts on the subject. I do not need to look it up. The point is that it is impossible to tell if a person is having absolutely no brain function whatsoever during cardiac arrest. Even your posts indicate that it takes a few seconds for this mechanism to begin. From what you are posting, it sounds like you expect this goes on for 15-20 minutes and more. The fact of the matter is that you have to bounce back from cardiac arrest rather quickly to survive. There is more time spent unconscious for survivors than time spent actually near death.

--From the moment that a person undergoes a cardiac arrest (which catches individuals off-guard), their blood circulation rapidly drops, and their brain function/activity approaches zero. At best, there would be the opportunity for distorted perception as everything speeds to a halt--but this would be far from creating such a vivid, real, and memorable experience.

Oh, give me a break. I have had lucid dreams while half awake. People trip balls while fully awake. It is entirely possible to hallucinate while losing consciousness.

I believe that it would be a wild assertion to state that a person with rapidly-depleting brain function would be able to muster, and furthermore vividly remember, such a strong and often life-changing "hallucination"--a "hallucination" that coincidentally happens to be very similar to that of thousands of other people who also have had near-death experiences.

Bah. It suits your conclusions, so it "intrigues" you. If you ever ate 'shrooms, you wouldn't doubt the brain's ability to totally mind fuck you.

[Shell B]

Hey, Skeptical Nurse, welcome to the forums. When you get a chance, could you post in the introductions forum so the riff-raff can hear a bit about you?

[Skeptical_Nurse]

Hey, Skeptical Nurse, welcome to the forums. When you get a chance, could you post in the introductions forum so the riff-raff can hear a bit about you?

Oh yeah, for sure lol I'm being a noob aren't i