Turkey's role in middle eastern politics

[reverendjeremiah]

Chest beating

[kılıç_mehmet]

See, here's the catch Mehmet. I don't think that the everyday joe walking around the streets of Turkey should feel personally ashamed for something his grandfather did. I don't. I do however think that you should be ashamed for your dogged attempts to justify or outright erase this sad little page from history. Before this conversation I was thinking meh, Mehmet is probably a decent enough guy, Imma cut him some slack, different cultures and all. I was wrong, bigots are bigots regardless of where they were born. If I wanted to listen to this sort of shit I'd attend a Klan rally. I think the only reason you haven't been warned or outright banned for blatant racism is because the mods are unfamiliar with your particular racist slang for people you don't like. If I dropped ethnic slurs as often as you did my ass would be railroaded, but you're lucky in that racism doesn't always translate well when it comes to the spoken word.

Well, you just said up there that genocide rests upon the entire people, from the lowest, to the highest, to the man who smelted the iron, to the man holding the weapon. And then you proceeded to declare that I'm also participating into the genocide that you claim that has occured simply because I'm not buying that crap. Please make up your mind.
I'm not trying to erase anything, instead, I'm trying to raise awareness in the minds of Turks that these games are being spread so well, that even the common man in the west takes it upon himself to defend armenian honor to the last breath. And then you proceed to declare me a bigot and that and this...There is a saying in Turkish, "Whomever tells the truth will be expelled from nine villages"..Obviously, you'd like to believe that Turks committed genocide against the armenians. Like I think which is true for most armenians, since armenians have built their entire existence upon it. Their only incentive as a nation is for Turkey to recognize their so-called genocide and give them lands and money. Nothing more. The entire political platform in Armenia revolves around this. Like really, why?
Since you're not armenian, and not even a side in this debate, why not actually hear our side for a change? But no. You are a brave little crusader, who has taken it upon himself, like Shell B, to defend poor Hayk.

[Shell B]

That's your answer to everything. I'm just a poor child who has been spoon-fed the vile ideology of nationalism. Just because I do not accept the blatant lies of our enemies, does not mean that I have to be raised by my parents to do so.

I am not your enemy, so how do you explain that you think I am blatantly lying? Do not attempt the "you are reading the work of my enemies" crap because I tend to like to dig down to the common denominator when it comes to sources.

Whether it was your parents or now, you were definitely spoon-fed something.

Where, exactly? Did I say that you killed a bunch of people? Have I ever said that all members of a certain race are bad because of the actions of a few. Do not project your shortcomings onto me. Your country has its flaws, like all countries, but I do not blame all Turks for the mistakes of the past.

As I said, you're going to tell me that you didn't mean to say that.

Holy shit. You are blatantly lying. I did not say I did not mean to say anything. In fact, I told you that I meant exactly what I said.

But that's how it usually goes. Even if you geniunely meant that, the bill and the stain is upon us all. Just like the bill and the stain is upon the Germans even today.

If anyone blames living Germans for the Holocaust, it is people like you, who are too zealous to look beyond their noses.

They are told that they must feel guilty for the doings of the Germans during the third reich.

Who tells them that, kilic?

I do not accept guilt for something that not me, neither my ancestors have done.

You shouldn't feel guilty. A. You didn't do anything apart from be willfully ignorant. B. Your ancestors may not have taken part in the massacres. Just because someone is Turkish it does not mean you are related to them closely enough to call them your ancestors.

Besides, it's not really up to you to determine who to blame. As you're not an armenian, the armenians do not really care about your opinion here...

Kilic, your arrogance gives me a headache. I'm not "blaming" anyone. I am pointing out facts. As for the Armenians, are you speaking for them now? I thought they were lowly, pitiful individuals. I doubt they would want you speaking for them. I know if I were Armenian, you would piss me off immensely.

Does it really matter? The Turkish army is being shown as the perpetrator. And the army is put together from Turks, not from anyone else.

Yes, it matters. You do realize it was Ottoman and Young Turks, making it politically separate from "your" Turkey, right? The army was actually made up of Ottomans. Too bad they weren't actually foot rests.

So what difference does it make? Do I make a cut through the Turks and say, "these are the guilty ones, I don't even know them!".

I'm trying very hard not to be rude here, but you are making it difficult. You couldn't possibly do that. The perpetrators are dead. Of course, you could bother to do some research and seek out those who were guilty, but you will not bother to because you are in denial.

No. I do not desert my people at the first sign of someone blaming us for something(which they do every year, for something new. I'm hoping for a martian genocide next year).

Oh, look at the histrionics spouting from you, kilic. I am talking about one genocide that occurred nearly 100 years ago and you are playing the "they blame us for everything" card. Don't be stupid. If it weren't for the Armenian Genocide, WWI and Christianity, there would be nothing Turkish to talk about outside of your country.

Sure, sure. Just keep telling yourself that. Again, you probably never met an armenian either.

Yes, I have. I live in one of the most culturally diverse cities in my country. Armenians, as well as Turks, come here to go to school. Now I know why.

And I don't think that these methods actually represent reality at all.
I mean, poisoning people? How many people do you hope to "exterminate" with that?

Again, easily. That would be a piece of cake. Tell them it is a vaccination and you can kill millions.

Like if you said, they lined them up and shot them, it would sound believable. But from what I've googled, it states that doctors have given them poison shots and willfully infected them with bacteria. It reeks so much of bullshit that it stinks to high heaven.

Apparently, you wouldn't know bullshit if someone rubbed your face in it. Again, that would be easy. Again, shooting that many people would be less believable. That would be more than one million rounds. That is fucking expensive, especially during a time of war. Either you think the Ottoman government was stupid enough to waste valuable resources or you really do not bother to read.

No one goes through such elaborate ways to exterminate anyone.

Yes, they do. Again, you really should have gone with that history degree.

Simpler. And how many do you think that were taken out in this way?

How the hell am I supposed to know the precise numbers, kilic. It could have been ten. It is one of several methods that were used. Don't worry, your favored bullets and beatings were on the list as well.

I'm sure that it won't amount anything near 10.000 even if it were true.

You are naive.

By you, I mean the allied forces.

The U.S. had a tenuous link to the Allied Forces of World War I, at best. They were not even part of the Allies during World War I. Seriously, dude, READ.

However, it was the US that have outlined the borders of a "Wilsonian Armenia", drawn by the US president Woodrow Wilson, whom the armenians still quote, and try to get an already unratified treaty accepted in the international political scene.

The U.S. did that? Didn't you just say Wilson did that? People, kilic, not countries. The U.S. witnessed the atrocities in your country. They were not involved apart from to share their accounts.

No, it's clear that you believe whatever you want to.

I'm not playing I know you are but what am I with you, kilic.

I said that the same courts have declared the Turkish liberation army as traitors, testifying to how the courts were working in favour of the allied occupation in Istanbul . But soon after we had captured a number of British officers, they were eager to hand them back to us, showing that the arrests and trials were mostly political in nature.

That doesn't show shit, kilic, even if it were entirely accurate.

Well, a fault that was corrected by our country's founding father.
He deposed of him, and he fled back to his British masters. Good riddence. After the war was won, the monarchy was done away with for good, and the power was given to the Turkish people.

Yeah, basically meaning that the empire that committed those atrocities no longer exists, yet you cling to them like a baby looking for solace in her mother's skirts. Be an individual and you will garner respect. Be a puppet for a long dead empire and you will garner pity.

What I meant by that was when it comes to Turks, even if only a single person suffered a minor nosebleed, people would talk of it for ages and ages and tell others that how badly the Turks beat the man to death and etc. and etc. That's how it is possible.

Really? How come I barely ever hear about your country outside of history books?

For why Turkey is not a world power...Well, it simply ain't. Do we seek to be a world power at all? Not with these borders, no.
And we already see the "world powers" in the world, doing their misdeeds all around the world...We do not want the world. We just want ourselves, for ourselves.

The problem is that you have racial biases in your country. You do not want your country for the people who live in it. You want to kick out everyone who isn't part of your conceived elite, even if it means evacuating people who have lived there since they were born simply because of their race. That is not a dignified position.

İrrelevant? I don't think so. The armenians are seeking to make this more and more dramatical, and they generally extend the period of "genocide" to the point when Kazım Karabekir destroyed their little "Wilsonian Armenia", and reinstated Turkish borders and made pacts with the newly formed Soviet state.

Yeah, it makes sense for them to do that, given that they were fucking citizens of what is now Turkey. So, forcing them to die, leave or both is part of the issue. At any rate, dramatical is not a word and they do not have to be dramatic. Like I said, the photos of the dead are real. Who they are with is not important.

Yeah. It didn't involve "militia"? You don't say...As I already said, Armenian irregulars were used not only by the Russians, they were also used by the French, and they did not only attack Turkish positions, but also the civies. So when we load them up and ship their asses to Syria where they can't bother us no more, we're committing a crime against humanity, oh great. I already said that numerous accounts on the part of Turks describe armenian armed gangs roaming the countryside. They were organized,however, they were trying to carve out a piece of land in which they were a minority. That's what spelled doom for their little revolution.
And yeah, the blue book still stands as the one true pillar to which all the proponets of the genocide cling to. A book of slander and propaganda.

Kilic, "rounding up their asses" should have included only militia. I stand by what I said. A genocide has nothing to do with militia. It is not armed combatants who were killed that are the issue. It is the children, unarmed men and unarmed women that I, and the world population in general, take umbrage to.

It was clear. The armenians in eastern provinces were to be relocated to prevent further armed attacks against Turkish forces and civillians. When the armenians collaborated with the Russians, they already followed their own path to doom.

Yes, children are so good at military collaborations. Fuck, you are dense.

Yes, genocide always is.

So-called genocide.

Genocide as defined by the term genocide. In fact, the incident for which the term genocide was coined, if I remember correctly.

But I am. There are numerous non-turkish historians contesting the validity of this.

Define many. The majority of historians in the world disagree with you.

If the west prides itself on the notion of free speech, why do they censor them at every turn, and turn, and blame us for performing censorship on the ones who do accept the so-called genocide in Turkey?

No one is censored. I am sure they are just laughed out of most discussions.

And once again, we are open to talks, yet, the armenians refuse to discuss the matter. They maintain their position that they have nothing to talk, and still go around with their hurr-durr hayk babble about mount Ararat or something and burn a couple more Turkish flags to feel better about themselves.

Why would they want to talk about it with Turkey? You are denying an event that robbed many of them of their true ancestors, not perceived prideful ancestors that were likely of no relation.

Why sue the US? The US has not given into the bullshit of the armenians, and with the Senate, and the Turkish and Jewish lobby having our backs, I'm certain that it never will.

Actually, 43 out of 50 states believe the Armenians. The rest, if I remember correctly, have simply failed to "pick a side," as it were. I do not know why you think our government has "your backs." You are incorrect.

And I'm stating that after this whole bullshit has been blown as false, we will sue all the partaking countries, like France(I'm looking at you Sarkozy) and Switzerland.

Turkey would be stupid to do that.

---

Rhythm, if you could point out the racist slurs, apart from the unibrow one that I caught on to and explain their meanings to any mod, I will definitely be railroading, after researching them myself. Please feel free to point them out, if you wish.

Kilic, if you indeed are blurting racist remarks, which I kind of figured when I read your most recent hurrdurr post, I suggest you stop now. I can tolerate one-sidedness and racial superiority complexes to an extent, but if you cannot control it and keep within acceptable talking points, there is a problem.

---

Give it a rest, kilic. I would defend anyone from a blatant lie. I'm not as selfish as you appear to be. Remember, appearances are everything here. Maybe you are brainwashed and actually quite nice, just do not know how to say nice things. However, it is looking bad. Even if you were right, which I completely disagree with, you are still blaming an entire race for your grievances. That is racist, kilic, whether you mean it to be or not.

[The Grand Nudger]

The one that set me off actually made it to the racial slur database. Armo. His creative (and repetitive) use of the russian/polish term bydlo (low class people, animals) in service of smearing entire ethnic groups is another frontrunner. Look at that Mehm, this whitey spent so much time in your neck of the woods he knows exactly when you're being a giant douche.

By the by, I can "rage" because genocide deserves it. I don't have to be Armenian to give a shit about Armenians and people like you who take every opportunity to treat them and speak about them as though they were sub-human. Fun fact, there are Armenian blue helmets serving as attachments to the Greek peacekeeping force in Kosovo, where I spent a considerable amount of my late teens and early twenties before all hell broke loose in those lovely middle eastern shitholes we're finally getting out of. Maybe I can't stand for your shit out of respect for people who did their damndest to keep my happy ass from walking into a fucking minefield buddy. That's warrior culture, stick up for your fellow soldiers, not something you'd know anything about is it. You're an armchair hero.

[Shell B]

Thank you, Rhythm.

[kılıç_mehmet]

[The Grand Nudger]

You know the minute you went down the hard liner nationalist route I knew you'd eventually lose your shit in a thread and burst into flames. Well, congratulations. Alternatively denying that the armenian genocide ever took place or arguing that they deserved it. Seems you have all your bases covered.

[kılıç_mehmet]

You know the minute you went down the hard liner nationalist route I knew you'd eventually lose your shit in a thread and burst into flames. Well, congratulations. Alternatively denying that the armenian genocide ever took place or arguing that they deserved it. Seems you have all your bases covered.

Well, it's really late now, and I'm really tired of studying and answering to your pro-hayk gibberish at the same time. I'll see you later on..Kuraga.

[Shell B]

You know what, I am tired of piecing this quote by quote. The bottom line is that you do not even have to be violent to commit genocide. Enacting a policy that you know is killing individuals of a certain race, religion or gender is genocide. You can hold their hands while you sing kumbaya and they starve to death -- still genocide. Look up the definition.

[Welsh cake]

Is kılıç_mehmet the closest we've ever had to a holocaust-denier on these forums? Either way he's a hopeless tool.