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Oh no matter what way you slice it Yahweh's moral character seems to be a bit off for a perfect being. Regardless of exactly how the fall occurred the eternal punishment can only, according to scripture, be enacted by one being which is God.
Yahweh CHOSE to create Hell and he CHOSE to make the punishment for sin separation and he CHOSE to make man the way he did. If someone invented a weapon and it was then taken over by a dictator who used it to rule the world we would probably not fault the inventor if he did not know.
Yahweh however knowing all things is more responsible than any inventor could ever be. Let's say it was inevitable that most of mankind would suffer eternally and let's say it was somehow out of Yahweh's control. Then Yahweh's moral choice would have been to never create man. You can slice it all sorts of ways but it still falls back to his responsibility. This is of course if the Yahweh was real etc.
December 13, 2011 at 5:21 am (This post was last modified: December 13, 2011 at 5:22 am by tackattack.)
(December 12, 2011 at 8:25 am)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: Why can atonement only be done with blood? Bit barbaric if you ask me, why not cucumbers?
Blood atonement is a Mormon view I beleive. The Christian view is substitutionary atonement. And to answer the question I'm sure will follow that; because the wages of sin is death.
(December 12, 2011 at 8:31 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: @Tack
So can you describe what exactly IS the fall from grace to you?
The actual event; sure I'll try. I'm no scholar in this but here's my thoughts on it. There was a time when humanity lived in blissfull trust and peace with God's will. Something happened dogmaticaly some kind of choice or excercise of free will. Afterward there was a fundamental shift in human nature where we don't trust in God and disobey his plan. I wasn't around then so I couldn't comment from experience.
(December 12, 2011 at 5:16 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote:
(December 12, 2011 at 4:16 pm)Voltair Wrote: I think he is trying to say he believes that there was an actual fall from grace but Genesis is telling of this fall from grace using a metaphoric story.
Fair enough but wouldn't that mean Yahweh screwed up by making us that way?
With the literal story, there is a tragic choice that brings "sin" into the world. You can still say that's Yahweh's fault for leaving a loaded gun in the room and leaving the children alone with it, but at least there a decision was made and there's a definable point where the "fall" occurred. With evolution, you have neither.
Close enough to the intent Voltair. Yahweh made us with choice. People constantly try and pawn off their responsibilities for choosing and personal accountability on God, I try and not do that. He wasn't wrong in creating everything and the options. Let's do an excercise. Do you think a child can learn that fire is hot without getting burned? I believe it's possible, but unlikely as every child I've known has experienced the pain of fire. What is knowledge without experience? Do you really blame parents for every child that gets burned? What about vaccinations; aren't you introducing a virus to a child? Do you accuse the parents of making their child sick?
What if I gave you a computer that had the answers to every bit of knowledge within this universe, and told you it was only from one perspective, and that the source was outside the boundaries of what this knowledge covers, and thus unverifiable. Would you trust that knowledge? Would you trust that source? If everything is available and knowable, then
(December 12, 2011 at 10:23 pm)Voltair Wrote:
Oh no matter what way you slice it Yahweh's moral character seems to be a bit off for a perfect being. Regardless of exactly how the fall occurred the eternal punishment can only, according to scripture, be enacted by one being which is God.
Yahweh CHOSE to create Hell and he CHOSE to make the punishment for sin separation and he CHOSE to make man the way he did. If someone invented a weapon and it was then taken over by a dictator who used it to rule the world we would probably not fault the inventor if he did not know.
Yahweh however knowing all things is more responsible than any inventor could ever be. Let's say it was inevitable that most of mankind would suffer eternally and let's say it was somehow out of Yahweh's control. Then Yahweh's moral choice would have been to never create man. You can slice it all sorts of ways but it still falls back to his responsibility. This is of course if the Yahweh was real etc.
I like what you said here "Let's say it was inevitable that most of mankind would suffer eternally and let's say it was somehow out of Yahweh's control. Then Yahweh's moral choice would have been to never create man." I would say that were true if I believed in eternal torment, or that the sum of human experience wouldn't equate for a better good than the sum of it's individual experiences.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
(December 13, 2011 at 6:53 am)dtango Wrote: But you were taught that myths are fairy tales. No?
No.
Even if the open windows of science at first make us shiver after the cozy indoor warmth of traditional humanizing myths, in the end the fresh air brings vigor, and the great spaces have a splendor of their own - Bertrand Russell
tackattack the fact that you do not believe in eternal torment is part of the reason why many of the issues probably don't bother you. I agree that if in the end we are all "redeemed" if you will then a lot of the problems with God, at least from a moral standpoint IF he were real, would be solved.
I am curious about what you think on a certain issue though. If there is no Hell/eternal torment is there any punishment for ignoring God/not giving him worship? If there is no punishment for it why exactly should we concern ourselves with what God wants for our lives? Why not just live in a peaceful manner and enjoy the life we have here?
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