Feeling a bit atheistish these days

[DeistPaladin]

Wow. that was deep. I just want to quote you on some parts that were amazing.

"that reason and critical thinking are fortunate by products and not some kind of 'gift'"

Just reading that shows that you truly understand some biology that a lot of people don't: there is no reason that our appreciation for art should have been naturally or sexually selected for but it very well could just be a byproduct of other functions that were selected for, not necessarily evidence of some deity.

I'm no scientist but I received a better education than most Americans. What I studied of evolution dovetailed nicely with deism. It's important for the atheist to understand that when I say/said "God", it's not the bearded sky-father that magically conjured everything into existence per the account in Genesis.

A good century before Darwin, a deist who's name I can't remember described human beings as "rational animals". There also is a sense of optimism about the human prospect in deism (in stark contrast with most brands of theism, that see a doomsday scenario ahead) that humans will continue to progress morally and intellectually, that reason will eventually triumph.

Our civilization (I'm speaking of human civilization all over the world) has been progressing morally. Things that used to be commonplace are now reviled and outlawed where possible (slavery, genocide, etc,). Our biological evolution from simpler forms also reflects this kind of progress. I remember being so amazed and how much seemed to come together perfectly for our development, including details like losing our body fur so that we might gain greater capacity to communicate verbally.

What I'm not considering a little more strongly is that compatibility isn't necessarily evidence. This is why I use the term "fortunate". It could be a deity tweaked our evolution (ala how the Vorlons in Babylon 5 created telepaths in various species), hence the divine "Gift of Reason", or it could be we won the cosmic lottery in more ways than one.

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I've said it before, but deists annoy me more than theists. I'm not saying that to upset you, but the reason I struggle with deism is that what is it based on? I keep on concluding "wishful thinking".

A sense of awe with the natural universe and the potential of the human mind and human civilization. Thing is that many atheists share this sense of wonder. Carl Sagan certainly had no lack of it. Dawkins has said things about the wonder of reality that always made me say "amen". Even the cromudgeon Christopher Hitchens has expressed a few such sentiments.

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Those are hard positions to defend, so I cant blame you much. Dont let ego get in the way. If you are wrong, then you are wrong, ego be damned.

This is one reason I should have known better than to use a belief in my moniker. I have this eccentric habit of reconsidering what I believe to be true if presented with a good argument I'd never before heard or with evidence previously unknown to me. I remember once startling TheSummerQueen with my ability to suddenly post how she's right and has convinced me.

I personally label deism under atheism, or non-theism, myself.

Deism is atheism with a lot of poetic flourishes and an optimistic outlook on our future. The latter is what's really been tested in the last decade.

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Wouldn't that render deism pointless?

There is no point to any view. It simply is. Or it isn't in which case belief should change with the evidence. However, there is no ulterior motive behind deism. This is why even when I was more convinced, I never went out to convert anyone else.

I can't imagine any deist handing out pamphlets telling people that they'll need to be ready for what we have no idea about and can't prepare for.

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Perhaps those traits are not as widespread as you think, D-P?

The rank stupidity that I've seen in the last decade or so has been something to test my faith. In the past I've always said that "Reason is a gift but some people can't get the box open."

I once wrote to AronRa in an email exchange that it's so ironic that it's other believers in God, not atheists, that are the ones who give me pause in my own beliefs.

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That's probably why you're not a deist. I know that's exactly why I'm not, but I can still respect it more that being... religious.

Exactly. Nobody ever "converts" to deism. There's no afterlife appeal nor is there any promise of either punishment or reward from any paternal god. From my own experience and from those who've shared their story, it feels more like a self-discovery. It's just what you are.

Maybe it's a God gene.

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Thanks to everyone else who replied and offered advice, particularly on dealing with depression.

[5thHorseman]

Although still daft, I can understand someone being an atheist then becoming a deist, how someone goes from atheism to religion is absolutely beyond me and quite frankly delusional.

[Tiberius]

I forbid you from de-converting. If you did that, we'd only have one theist left on the Staff, and we'd have to hunt around for another one to keep the numbers up.

So yeah...God exists...for you, k?

Although still daft, I can understand someone being an atheist then becoming a deist, how someone goes from atheism to religion is absolutely beyond me and quite frankly delusional.

All religious people were once atheists. Just saying.

[DeistPaladin]

how someone goes from atheism to religion is absolutely beyond me

One word:

MONEY!

Religion is a lucrative business and the testimony of an "ex-atheist" turned apologist is most valuable.

[Norfolk And Chance]

A sense of awe with the natural universe and the potential of the human mind and human civilization. Thing is that many atheists share this sense of wonder. Carl Sagan certainly had no lack of it. Dawkins has said things about the wonder of reality that always made me say "amen". Even the cromudgeon Christopher Hitchens has expressed a few such sentiments.

I feel a sense of awe very often. You only have to look at a starry sky on a clear night, understand the distances involved etc. Many, many other natural things fill me with awe. Does that make me think there is a deity? Absolutely not. There's no evidence for one and no need for one either given the vast age of the universe.

In fact, the sense of awe is perhaps greater when you think to yourself "fuck, this did it all by itself!"