Prayer

[Whateverist]

You don't see me starting threads to gripe about it.

Aren't there biblical prohibitions against sloth? Just sayin'.

[Catholic_Lady]

Are you not reading what I am saying, or are you purposely twisting it for your own benefit of having something to criticize me about?[...]

Neither. Lol... I'm just having fun watching you dance around my point. Whether you pray or not - it makes no difference to the person you're praying for. The actually helping part - that's for them, The prayer - that's just something for you to feel, like you have magical powers. An indulgence. Sort of mental masturbation, if you will - feels nice, and may be in itself mostly harmless, but is not particularly productive and great number of religious people use it as a substitute for actually doing anything, or even as an excuse to act like holier than thou a**holes.

If you only help someone and neglect to pray - the outcome for that person is exactly the same as if you did the mumbo jumbo thing. You can even still tell them you will pray, if they're superstitious and you think it might make them feel good - and then not pray. No difference. Except for you and the fancy narrative of your existence you've become accustomed to.

You say "neither" and then go on to repeat something that I've already explained multiple times, including in the post you are responding to and snipped.

[The Grand Nudger]

I find it amusing that being granted anything, even emotional strength, by a god, is seen to be "other than supernatural".  Of course, some catholics do believe that god can supernaturally grant a person real goods........and then there's intercession - which is theologically non-negotiable as a catholic....so it's a bit disingenuous to say that catholics don't see prayer as a divine wish granting mechanism.  That's the whole -point- of saints. Perhaps -some- catholics do not believe that real goods can be wish granted, but that probably has more to do with there being no wish granted goods, than with catholic beliefs. I'm willing to bet that any catholic who thinks that prayer -doesn't- or -can't- supernaturally grant real goods is in the minority. It's increasingly becoming a third world religion, after all. Catholic mothers in african shitholes aren't praying for "emotional strength". That's a first world problem, for first world believers, in a first world god.

[Ravenshire]

The 2 don't have to be mutually exclussive.

No, they don't have to be. But, they frequently are.

[Whateverist]

I find it amusing that being granted anything, even emotional strength, by a god, is seen to be "other than supernatural".  Of course, some catholics do believe that god can supernaturally grant a person real goods........and then there's intercession - which is theologically non-negotiable as a catholic....so it's a bit disingenuous to say that catholics don't see prayer as a divine wish granting mechanism.  That's the whole -point- of saints.  Perhaps -some- catholics do not believe that real goods can be wish granted, but that probably has more to do with there being no wish granted goods, than with catholic beliefs.

My theory, for the 708th time, is that they recognize that the superdupernatural can only penetrate the natural world if we hold the door open from our side.  So, unless you make yourself open to divine intervention, He can't do anything for you.  Throw in something about free will, yada yada.

I don't know whether believers think their own prayers on another's behalf can open the door for another person or if it is really intended as a reminder to their fellow believer to open their own damn door.

Cath-y, do you think I'm completely off base here?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Prayers seem to fall very broadly into the categories of thanksgiving , supplication, and intercession.

What, precisely, is there to thank God for? Since God created and maintains the universe, and cannot act in a manner contrary to his nature, then there is either no point in thanking God for rainbows and kitten videos on YouTube, or you should be as quick to offer thanks for the Oakland fire, or for the mudslide that destroyed [insert name of desperately poor village here]. All of these are inclusive in the will of God, so what is the point of being thankful?

Supplicatory prayers are pretty nonsensical as well-God already knows who worships him and who doesn't. How does offering up this sort of prayer make a difference?

And asking God to intercede in human affairs strikes me as pretty arrogant. Since nothing happens that cannot be part of the divine plan, prayers like these aren't going to change anything; you're not going to win the lottery, nor is great uncle Frim's testicular boil going to disappear based on your prayers. These things are going to happen or not, regardless.

Praying is just,well, stupid.

Boru

[Homeless Nutter]

I couldn't care the least what consenting adults do in the privacy of their homes. Do I think everything done by consenting adults in private is moral? No, so I don't partake in it myself. But that's a far cry from being mad by other people doing it. You don't see me starting threads to gripe about it.

No, of course not. You just give money and support to an organization, which fights against the rights of people, who do the "immoral" things you dislike. It's easy to be magnanimous, when you have the modern Holy Inquisition actively working against the rights of people, who don't fit your prudish sense of morality.

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You say "neither" and then go on to repeat something that I've already explained multiple times, including in the post you are responding to and snipped.

No, you didn't. Unless you mean to admit, that prayer is just something you're doing only for your own comfort, to kill some time in between the good deeds, and to keep your mind away from naughty things.

[The Grand Nudger]

My theory, for the 708th time, is that they recognize that the superdupernatural can only penetrate the natural world if we hold the door open from our side.  So, unless you make yourself open to divine intervention, He can't do anything for you.  Throw in something about free will, yada yada.

I don't know whether believers think their own prayers on another's behalf can open the door for another person or if it is really intended as a reminder to their fellow believer to open their own damn door.

Obviously, a person crying out to god for help feeding their children is about as open to the divine as anyone can get.  Some end up believing that god answers their prayers...and why not, scripture says he does, the pulpit says he does...even if the pulpit knows better than to write checks their gods ass can't cash explicitly.  They all vaguely felate intercessionary prayer and the power of prayer, and as to the question you asked.....it;s non- negotiable for a catholic...they have to believe in the communion and intercession of saints.  That someone else can plead with god on your behalf to"open the door".  Catechism and all that, lol.

You're asking the wrong person for "catholic beliefs" when you ask Cath. She has her beliefs, which are frequently at odds with the catechism and of the cannonization of saints (whose miracles are all "confirmed" by the church and very often presented themselves as real goods in response to pious prayer)....as are the beliefs of many, probably even most "catholics". Even the church understands this. They constantly bemoan their adherents general lack of knowledge in the faith and dabbling in personal and foreign ideologies.

[emjay]

The way I see it is that prayer stops people from focusing on themselves... by constantly either thanking or asking for help from an external source, people neglect their own inner resources and/or don't give them enough credit. It seems to me that it could lead to a very shallow and empty existence, that lacks self-awareness and psychological growth because of constantly 'blaming' (in a positive or negative sense) the external world rather than trying to understand and master the inner world.

[Catholic_Lady]

I find it amusing that being granted anything, even emotional strength, by a god, is seen to be "other than supernatural".  Of course, some catholics do believe that god can supernaturally grant a person real goods........and then there's intercession - which is theologically non-negotiable as a catholic....so it's a bit disingenuous to say that catholics don't see prayer as a divine wish granting mechanism.  That's the whole -point- of saints.  Perhaps -some- catholics do not believe that real goods can be wish granted, but that probably has more to do with there being no wish granted goods, than with catholic beliefs.

My theory, for the 708th time, is that they recognize that the superdupernatural can only penetrate the natural world if we hold the door open from our side.  So, unless you make yourself open to divine intervention, He can't do anything for you.  Throw in something about free will, yada yada.

I don't know whether believers think their own prayers on another's behalf can open the door for another person or if it is really intended as a reminder to their fellow believer to open their own damn door.

Cath-y, do you think I'm completely off base here?

I believe miracles *can* happen but I think they are extremely rare. Regardless of whether we are holding the door open to it or not. 

It is much more likely that God will answer prayers by working through people. Like granting emotional strength and comfort to the person we pray for, or for ourselves if we are the ones praying for help. Or that He will work on the hearts of ourselves and others to help those in need, etc. 

That's why when I've been asking others to pray for my current situation, I always ask them to pray for me to have the strength to get through whatever I am dealt with. I don't ask for a miracle. And of course, even just the knowledge that anyone prayed for me brings me a sense of peace.