With reference to public schools, do you think that there should be classes in elementary, middle, and high school (Or however it works in your country) teaching logic/reasoning/skepticism/critical thinking?

I think there could be fun ways to do conduct a session of logic and skepticism while in elementary school. It would be nice if kids were taught early to question everything, and not just accept everything handed to them. This would also keep the teachers on their toes more so. Also, when the kids begin to question everything, they start to ask, “How do we know this is true?” The teacher could respond, “Well, it’s science, it’s the best way of testing ideas to the best of our ability”, or something to that effect, contingent on the circumstance.

In middle/high school, there could be at least a quarter or a trimester dedicated to that, one year in middle school, and two years in high school, as follows: You could get history 3/4 of the year, and 1/4 logic. Another year, you could have algebra for 3/4 of the year and 1/4 of the year logic, because, realistically, there would be no way to add another hour to school (not in in the U.S. anyway).

I think the kids would look forward to class in logic. It would be like a P.E. for your brain, and it would give a chance for kids to interact more with each other in a fun way. The brain exercises could include: memory, patterns, logic grids, trick questions, riddles, cryptography, ciphers, then later maybe, fallacies, syllogisms, and deductive/inductive/abductive reasoning. If there was computer access, maybe the teachers could get the kids on Luminosity once in awhile, or on Fridays kids could play Mastermind with each other. I know, I would have loved a class like that, when I was in school. It could be more of a participation grade, like in P.E. I had something similar to that, when I was in G.A.T.E. in elementary school, and I loved all the riddles, brain teasers, puzzles, and projects.

For the most part, from what I remember, everyone’s brains in school worked to absorb information. Our brains didn’t get exercised in a critical thinking/abstract manner as often as I feel it should have, except when writing an essay. I absorbed or memorized things like history, algebra, etc., but I didn’t let it wonder and think about the nature of why things are the way they are (philosophy would be a good elective in high school too. I never saw it being offered in my area) It would be good to expand the mind, and to get students to think outside the box, and more importantly, just to use critical thinking and to be skeptical of everything. It would be nice, if some kids, actually put that skepticism, that was placed into their heads by their teachers, and applied it to their idiotic religions that they were raised with. It would be a fun (maybe not for everyone) break from the monotonous, uneventful days in school.

Do you think it would be a good idea to require logic to be taught in the public school systems in a manner that I mentioned, (3/4 year X, 1/4 Logic) or maybe some other method? Do you think it should be an elective? Or do you think it doesn’t matter too much? Thanks for your thoughts and ideas.

(July 26, 2015 at 1:12 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: With reference to public schools, do you think that there should be classes in elementary, middle, and high school (Or however it works in your country) teaching logic/reasoning/skepticism/critical thinking?

Yes, absolutely.  Just logic and critical thinking will do; there is no need to endorse skepticism, depending on what, precisely, you mean by it.

(July 26, 2015 at 1:12 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote: I think there could be fun ways to do conduct a session of logic and skepticism while in elementary school. It would be nice if kids were taught early to question everything, and not just accept everything handed to them. This would also keep the teachers on their toes more so. Also, when the kids begin to question everything, they start to ask, “How do we know this is true?” The teacher could respond, “Well, it’s science, it’s the best way of testing ideas to the best of our ability”, or something to that effect, contingent on the circumstance.

In middle/high school, there could be at least a quarter or a trimester dedicated to that, one year in middle school, and two years in high school, as follows: You could get history 3/4 of the year, and 1/4 logic. Another year, you could have algebra for 3/4 of the year and 1/4 of the year logic, because, realistically, there would be no way to add another hour to school (not in in the U.S. anyway).

I think the kids would look forward to class in logic. It would be like a P.E. for your brain, and it would give a chance for kids to interact more with each other in a fun way. The brain exercises could include: memory, patterns, logic grids, trick questions, riddles, cryptography, ciphers, then later maybe, fallacies, syllogisms, and deductive/inductive/abductive reasoning. If there was computer access, maybe the teachers could get the kids on Luminosity once in awhile, or on Fridays kids could play Mastermind with each other. I know, I would have loved a class like that, when I was in school. It could be more of a participation grade, like in P.E. I had something similar to that, when I was in G.A.T.E. in elementary school, and I loved all the riddles, brain teasers, puzzles, and projects.

For the most part, from what I remember, everyone’s brains in school worked to absorb information. Our brains didn’t get exercised in a critical thinking/abstract manner as often as I feel it should have, except when writing an essay. I absorbed or memorized things like history, algebra, etc., but I didn’t let it wonder and think about the nature of why things are the way they are (philosophy would be a good elective in high school too. I never saw it being offered in my area) It would be good to expand the mind, and to get students to think outside the box, and more importantly, just to use critical thinking and to be skeptical of everything. It would be nice, if some kids, actually put that skepticism, that was placed into their heads by their teachers, and applied it to their idiotic religions that they were raised with. It would be a fun (maybe not for everyone) break from the monotonous, uneventful days in school.

Do you think it would be a good idea to require logic to be taught in the public school systems in a manner that I mentioned, (3/4 year X, 1/4 Logic) or maybe some other method? Do you think it should be an elective? Or do you think it doesn’t matter too much? Thanks for your thoughts and ideas.

I have not given it much thought for what it should replace in the curriculum.  I would have to look at the current curriculum in detail to make an assessment on that.  But I think logic/critical thinking, as is generally taught in college (that is, in terms of subject matter, not necessarily in terms of difficulty), would be a good requirement in grade school and again later on, adding depth to what was previously taught, as well as reviewing what was previously taught.


I think a class in comparative religion would also be good.  That is where people are taught the basic doctrines of the main religions, not as the truth, but as what people in the world believe.  Being aware of how other people view the world is a good thing.  But this is a separate class entirely from logic and critical thinking.

There is this belief that children should always obey their parents, so I doubt anyone is going to push for a skepticism class in elementary school. "Because I said so" would break down so fast, and it's pretty much a parent's trump card. Teens are already rebellious enough without being taught the best ways to debate a topic, though debate clubs do exist. Just not a third period debate class, between math and history.

I think highschool would be the best time, though. Teenagers becoming their own people, and looking forward to being independents, should flock to a class about critical thinking. If anything is going to help someone be an adult, it's teaching them how to think for themselves, though authoritative parents won't like it.

I could easily see this in college, but not everyone goes to college. Especially with high student loans that you can't file bankruptcy on.

(July 26, 2015 at 1:51 pm)Chad32 Wrote: ...

I could easily see this in college, but not everyone goes to college. ...

Logic/Critical Thinking classes are taught in college.  Look in the Philosophy section of the catalog for your nearest college/university.  But even in college, it is not a requirement.  It is an option.  Except for people majoring in Philosophy.  Otherwise, I don't think anyone has to take it.

(July 26, 2015 at 1:46 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: Yes, absolutely.  Just logic and critical thinking will do; there is no need to endorse skepticism, depending on what, precisely, you mean by it.

In elementary school, it could be something as simple as a worksheet saying: Which of the following events likely never took place.. A. B. C. D. One of the answers could be a horse grew wings and flew to a different planet, but maybe not a great idea, I was thinking what the parents would think, as I was writing this. In one country, it would be considered good, but in the U.S., it may not be a smart move as of yet, but who knows..

Quote:I think a class in comparative religion would also be good.

And, I agree with you that if you wanted to take a religions class, it could be offered if the teacher was careful enough not to show any bias towards any particular faith.

(July 26, 2015 at 1:51 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I think highschool would be the best time, though. Teenagers becoming their own people, and looking forward to being independents, should flock to a class about critical thinking. If anything is going to help someone be an adult, it's teaching them how to think for themselves, though authoritative parents won't like it.

(emphasis is mine)

I have to disagree with this. By high school the herd mentality has fully kicked in. The jocks, thugs, geeks, etc... have already fallen out into their own little cliques. High school students are the least amenable to individual, critical thought even though it may help them then more than at any other age. The christers do get one thing right with their thinking that if you teach them young, they'll believe for life. Logic and critical thinking are things that should be taught at every level of schooling, and indeed, by the parents before school even starts.

(July 26, 2015 at 2:20 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:

(July 26, 2015 at 1:46 pm)Pyrrho Wrote: Yes, absolutely.  Just logic and critical thinking will do; there is no need to endorse skepticism, depending on what, precisely, you mean by it.

In elementary school, it could be something as simple as a worksheet saying: Which of the following events likely never took place.. A. B. C. D. One of the answers could be a horse grew wings and flew to a different planet, but maybe not a great idea, I was thinking what the parents would think, as I was writing this. In one country, it would be considered good, but in the U.S., it may not be a smart move as of yet, but who knows..

That is not how critical thinking should be taught.  You might want to look at something like Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric by Howard Kahane.  Any edition should be fine for this purpose.  It is a college textbook geared toward critical thinking rather than symbolic logic.  For grade school, I think that approach would be better than something like Copi's standard logic text (Introduction to Logic).  (However, for someone wanting symbolic logic, I know of no better introduction than Copi, as every other introductory text that I have seen gives a poor explanation for material implication, whereas Copi gives a first-rate explanation of it.  For anyone interested, Copi got that right from the very first edition of his standard text, so probably any edition would be fine for that.)

If you want ideas from online, search for sites on logic and focus on informal fallacies.

(July 26, 2015 at 2:20 pm)Salacious B. Crumb Wrote:

Quote:I think a class in comparative religion would also be good.

And, I agree with you that if you wanted to take a religions class, it could be offered if the teacher was careful enough not to show any bias towards any particular faith.

When I attended High School, there was a class on comparative religions.  It was an elective, not a requirement.  I took it.  The teacher presented the information in a neutral way, if my memory is correct (it has been a long time).  A decent teacher can present it fairly without too much trouble.  It does not require much thinking to tell people that, according to mainstream Islam, Muhammad is the prophet of God, etc.

(July 26, 2015 at 2:36 pm)SnakeOilWarrior Wrote:

(July 26, 2015 at 1:51 pm)Chad32 Wrote: I think highschool would be the best time, though. Teenagers becoming their own people, and looking forward to being independents, should flock to a class about critical thinking. If anything is going to help someone be an adult, it's teaching them how to think for themselves, though authoritative parents won't like it.

(emphasis is mine)

I have to disagree with this. By high school the herd mentality has fully kicked in. The jocks, thugs, geeks, etc... have already fallen out into their own little cliques. High school students are the least amenable to individual, critical thought even though it may help them then more than at any other age. The christers do get one thing right with their thinking that if you teach them young, they'll believe for life. Logic and critical thinking are things that should be taught at every level of schooling, and indeed, by the parents before school even starts.

I agree completely.  Critical thinking should be taught starting at the earliest levels of schooling.

It would be very beneficial, no doubt. I think there would be a lot of resistance to it in the U.S. because the religious right would paint it as state-sponsored teaching of atheism.

(July 26, 2015 at 3:05 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: It would be very beneficial, no doubt. I think there would be a lot of resistance to it in the U.S. because the religious right would paint it as state-sponsored teaching of atheism.

It absolutely should not be taught as preaching atheism.  It should be taught as critical thinking, just as it is commonly done in colleges today.  It is about method, not about results.