I somehow missed this reply to one of my posts.

(August 2, 2015 at 10:07 am)Little Rik Wrote: I wouldn't really worry whether i can or can not do so many things.
As i just said above the main thing is to put your trust in this cosmic consciousness.
All the rest is really not that important.
How could something that does not lead to real progress like the material world be important?
Why go around and around and getting nowhere is important?

I'm not worried about being unable to do certain things.  I'm going to repost an article from the Ananda Marga website because it relates to what I'm trying to say.

Spiritual Philosophy

Quote:The spiritual philosophy of Ananda Marga recognizes that God is one, and that the universe is the creation of His mental thought-waves. Thus it is said: “Brahma is the absolute truth, and the universe is also truth, but relative.” The diversities of this universe are the transitory transformations of part of His infinite cosmic “body” in a never-ending flow. This implies that life and the universe will never end, but that parts of it are continuously being created from Him and concurrently merging back into Him.

The universe exists as an ever-changing, constantly moving phenomenon. He has transformed a part of Himself into the drama of the world of which we are all a part. But He is also beyond all relativity and transitory existence. He is beyond time, space and mind. He is the Causal Entity. One cannot even begin to imagine Him, let alone speak about Him.

Another article goes into the drama further.

God

Quote:Question: Why did God make this world, what is the purpose, and if there is a purpose why do I exist and what does God want from me?

Answer: Where logicians are left wanting, humble devotees of God have come up with a simple answer to the question. They say “God was alone, He had no one to talk to, no one to love, no one to scold! So, He created the planets and the living beings to fill this emptiness with endless activity.”

When you make observations based on cause and effect this is called Kriida in Sanskrit and when you go beyond logic it is called Liila. Liila also means “play” or “sport.” So, from this viewpoint God created the universe as a cosmic play, a great cosmic drama in which each of us has a role to play.

What is my role and what is your role in this cosmic drama?

You, I and all the animate and inanimate objects of the universe are nothing but manifestations of God. When we say that God created the universe, we have to ask, “What is the stuff from which He created everything?” Yoga philosophy says that everything of this universe is composed of Consciousness or the very essence of God.

Poets describe this by saying that God is playing hide-and-seek. He has hidden Himself in all the created objects of the universe.

So our role is to act out our part in the drama but to do our best to seek God, and to discover that He is everywhere, and most importantly residing in the core of our hearts. When you understand that He is in all objects, then you will begin to treat these objects with great respect and love.

What does God want from you? He wants you to smile, to seek inside yourself and find out who you really are, and to serve the others around you, knowing that they are expressions of Him.

The Confused Ape character can't sing or paint a beautiful picture but this is irrelevant to the drama because other characters in it are able to do these things.

Confused Ape Wrote:If I go back to it I will cease to exist as Confused Ape.  I'll be absorbed into the source which will retain all the information it acquired from playing the role of me.

(August 2, 2015 at 10:07 am)Little Rik Wrote: This can be a difficult philosophical point.
A drop of water that merge into the big ocean doesn't have in her consciousness the dilemma whether it is important or not to merge into the ocean in order to know information or to know any other thing.
She just merge to be back home just like the son that going back home after a long long absence make his father very happy.

I don't find anything difficult about it.  According to the Andanda Marga philosophy Confused Ape is just one of the "transitory transformations of part of His infinite cosmic “body” in a never-ending flow."  Confused Ape is very transitory, really, because this character in the drama will only exist for as long as this body lasts.  

Rebirth

Quote:Question: Can a person be reincarnated in an animal body?

Answer:

Yes, it is possible. If a person’s actions are predominantly animal-like then his or her mind will reach a state where it is more suited for an animal body than a human body. In this case, after death that person’s mind is likely to be born into an animal body. This is called “negative pratisaincara” (counter-evolution).

In this regard, it is important to understand that a mind is always born into a body and situation which will best faciltate its expression. So in the end we always get what we want.

If I mess up in this life I could be reborn as a sheep and won't be Confused Ape any more. I won't even be a human mind.  I'll be a sheep's mind with everything I experience shaped by a sheep's brain and body.  I'll walk on four legs, my conversation will be limited to "Baaaa" and all my concerns will be sheep concerns.  If I don't mess up and the mind in this body is reborn as a human I still won't be Confused Ape. I'll be a different character that God is playing in his drama.

So, on to your drop of water metaphor. The ocean has manifested a drop of water which is currently Confused Ape but the ocean itself isn't Confused Ape. If this drop of water manages to merge with the ocean it will cease to exist as a drop of water. This idea doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Confused Ape Wrote:The way I see it the awareness will be the fact that I'm not real.  My body and brain are just a costume worn by Cosmic Consciousness playing a role. Everything in the physical universe is a costume which Cosmic Consciousness is wearing as it plays all these roles at the same time as playing me.

(August 2, 2015 at 10:07 am)Little Rik Wrote: In a way yes but don't forget that this is His game.
Yours is totally different.
You role is to expand your consciousness until a parallelism between you and the cosmic consciousness is reached.

Yes, it's His game but He's also all the players in His game. The players' role in the game is for these bits of God to become fully aware that they're bits of God playing in His game.

Look, you have a point maybe, but you're using the wrong word for it. What exactly do you mean by consciousness? I dare you define that in such a way that it actually makes sense and relates to the physical world we (can) experience - not there is any other world.

Your feelings, your particular human feelings die with you, or rather, they die with your brain. You won't feel after you're dead and disintegrating because there will be nothing to feel with. The organism that lets you experience this Universe won't be there anymore. But you will live on, in some sense anyway, if you choose to call it that - your atoms will still be a part of this Universe. It's just that they'll cease to make up a living being --you.

There's nothing more to it. You're just confused and stuck in various philosophical wonderings because of a failure of a linguistical nature. Theists tend to add non-existing meanings to words. I think you know very well that this is so. This is not bad in and of itself, not necessarily, we can choose to use language however we want and creativity and ingenuiness in doing so is much appreciated most of the times, just one thing though - you have to be able to distinguish between set, given meanings of words and ideas and your own personalized usage of them. This is paramount for a proper discussion held among peers and for your own better understanding of concepts as well.

(August 2, 2015 at 10:32 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:

(August 2, 2015 at 10:15 am)Little Rik Wrote: Sure, sure but can you please tell me if a river can be stopped from merging into the sea?
Have you ever seen that happening? 

Yes. It's called "a dam".
Also - many rivers fall into lakes, not connected to seas. 
Oh, yeah - and sometimes there are things called "droughts", which stop some rivers from going anywhere. 
So, what's your point, genius?

Actually you don't have to be a genius to realize how the system works.
In the physical universe gravity lead (so to speak) the water towards the ocean.
On the abstract realm of consciousness a similar force lead the microcosm or unit mind
to merge in the macrocosm or the ocean of cosmic consciousness. 
Nothing really stay the same.
Everything move towards something bigger.
Nobody ever provided any evidence that the physical death means also the consciousness death.

(August 3, 2015 at 10:42 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(August 2, 2015 at 10:32 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: Yes. It's called "a dam".
Also - many rivers fall into lakes, not connected to seas. 
Oh, yeah - and sometimes there are things called "droughts", which stop some rivers from going anywhere. 
So, what's your point, genius?

Actually you don't have to be a genius to realize how the system works.
In the physical universe gravity lead (so to speak) the water towards the ocean.
On the abstract realm of consciousness a similar force lead the microcosm or unit mind
to merge in the macrocosm or the ocean of cosmic consciousness. 
Nothing really stay the same.
Everything move towards something bigger.
Nobody ever provided any evidence that the physical death means also the consciousness death.

No, Earth's gravity pulls things toward the center of Earth. The coalescing of bodies of water is incidental to their migration toward the lowest point.

(August 3, 2015 at 10:42 am)Little Rik Wrote: On the abstract realm of consciousness a similar force lead the microcosm or unit mind
to merge in the macrocosm or the ocean of cosmic consciousness. 
Nothing really stay the same.
Everything move towards something bigger.

I think people are getting confused because the Ananda Marga definition of consciousness isn't the same thing as neuroscience's definition of consciousness.

I looked up what Ananda Marga says about death and the unit mind and it's very clear than unit minds don't experience anything without bodies because they are dormant and they won't experience anything again until they are reborn into new bodies.

Quote:Nobody ever provided any evidence that the physical death means also the consciousness death.

Now to consciousness.

God

Quote:They say “God was alone, He had no one to talk to, no one to love, no one to scold! So, He created the planets and the living beings to fill this emptiness with endless activity.”

You, I and all the animate and inanimate objects of the universe are nothing but manifestations of God. When we say that God created the universe, we have to ask, “What is the stuff from which He created everything?” Yoga philosophy says that everything of this universe is composed of Consciousness or the very essence of God.

Spiritual Philosopy

Quote:The diversities of this universe are the transitory transformations of part of His infinite cosmic “body” in a never-ending flow. This implies that life and the universe will never end, but that parts of it are continuously being created from Him and concurrently merging back into Him.

God/Brahma/Cosmic Consciousness or whatever you want to call it was conscious before anything was created. (I'll call it Brahma).  Brahma's manifestations in the universe are temporary things which don't exist forever but Brahma's consciousness doesn't cease to exist when the temporary manifestations are no more.

So back to NDE's.  When you read the reports they are the experiences of the unit minds because they can meet relatives or pets during the course of their experience. This NDE report is from a woman who was met by her pet dog.

Jan Price's Near-Death Experience With Her Pet Dog

If you scroll down the page to section 6 you'll read -

Quote:6. Visiting Her Dog Maggi's Heaven

Maggi wanted to show me where she lived, which she said was patterned by much of what she remembered of the homes where she had lived with us. She had held the images in her mind, pressed, and created a place of residence. As she spoke of her home, we arrived there, which didn't seem strange at all at the time. Later I realized that it was a rather bizarre experience - not only the instantaneous "being there" in the space of a thought but also the idea that our dog actually had a beautiful home on the other side. Again John later helped me to understand this when he said that Emanuel Swedenborg, a frequent visitor to the heavenly realm, wrote that animals do indeed have abodes in the spiritual world, pointing out that they:
"...have such knowledge, for it is implanted in them to know of themselves their homes and dwelling places, as is evident from abundant observation." [12]

As I stood in Maggi's dwelling place, I felt great joy. There was a fire in the fireplace, giving the room a warm, friendly glow. A wall of books - of course! Beautiful paintings and oriental rugs. One whole side of the room was glass and you could look out on a vista of rolling hills, bubbling streams, and many trees.

We sat comfortably on one of the soft, velvety love seats, content just to be together. I stroked her beautiful head and she laid her paws across my legs.

I don't think Ananda Marga teaches that when someone dies they continue in an afterlife where they can visit a comfortable home created by a pet dog.

Where an NDE is concerned a body has started the dying process but it doesn't reach the point where the process can't be reversed.  If a unit mind is having experiences of something it can't have left the body according to Ananda Marga teachings because a unit mind lacking a body is asleep so doesn't experience anything.

If you believe that you'll experience some kind of afterlife once your body has completed the death process you aren't following the Ananda Marga philosophy. Afterlives are part of other philosophies such as Theosophy, Spiritualism and Wicca.

PS: There's something very interesting in section 12 of that report.

Quote:12. Understanding Life from God's Perspective

The Wise One continued speaking:

"Throughout the vast unlimitedness of All That Is, the creative energy - that which is called the Spirit of God - is expressing itself as you, me, and everything else. Wherever we are, the God-source is, and we are always somewhere."

"Sometimes I am in places where God doesn't seem to be, as in the middle of a heart attack," I responded. "Surely God is not there."

"Yes. Wherever we are, the Source, God, is. A heart attack isn't bad. It is just an experience accepted on a certain level of being. We are so unlimited that we can limit, restrict, contract. Such power is awesome, for it is our very nature to create. We are constantly expressing in some way. Those who have chosen to move into the adventure of the dense matter we call physical must learn how fully to enjoy it. Physical is not lesser than other realms, just different. It is a special form of expression that has unique pleasures when we understand how to do it rightly. We should not be so eager to get out. Physical is not unspiritual. All is God. With understanding of omnipresence we will stop creating hurtful experiences, for fear will no longer exist. There is nothing wrong, nothing bad, there is just creation."

(August 3, 2015 at 12:57 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: PS: There's something very interesting in section 12 of that report.

Quote:12. Understanding Life from God's Perspective

The Wise One continued speaking:

"Throughout the vast unlimitedness of All That Is, the creative energy - that which is called the Spirit of God - is expressing itself as you, me, and everything else. Wherever we are, the God-source is, and we are always somewhere."

"Sometimes I am in places where God doesn't seem to be, as in the middle of a heart attack," I responded. "Surely God is not there."

"Yes. Wherever we are, the Source, God, is. A heart attack isn't bad. It is just an experience accepted on a certain level of being. We are so unlimited that we can limit, restrict, contract. Such power is awesome, for it is our very nature to create. We are constantly expressing in some way. Those who have chosen to move into the adventure of the dense matter we call physical must learn how fully to enjoy it. Physical is not lesser than other realms, just different. It is a special form of expression that has unique pleasures when we understand how to do it rightly. We should not be so eager to get out. Physical is not unspiritual. All is God. With understanding of omnipresence we will stop creating hurtful experiences, for fear will no longer exist. There is nothing wrong, nothing bad, there is just creation."

Do you not see the contradiction in this? It talks of us creating "hurtful" experiences and then goes on to say there is nothing wrong or bad. If there is no wrong or bad, how do you define "hurtful" and "evil"? It is logically incoherent

(August 3, 2015 at 2:04 pm)lkingpinl Wrote:

(August 3, 2015 at 12:57 pm)Confused Ape Wrote: PS: There's something very interesting in section 12 of that report.

Do you not see the contradiction in this?  It talks of us creating "hurtful" experiences and then goes on to say there is nothing wrong or bad.  If there is no wrong or bad, how do you define "hurtful" and "evil"?  It is logically incoherent

The interesting thing in the report is the idea that the spirit of God is expressing itself through everything that exists, including people. In the Ananda Marga philosophy which Little Rik follows the idea is that all the animate and inanimate objects of the universe are manifestations of God.  This doesn't automatically mean that either of these similar ideas are true of course, just that the human brain can create experiences where God being everything seems very real.

(August 3, 2015 at 2:31 pm)Confused Ape Wrote:

(August 3, 2015 at 2:04 pm)lkingpinl Wrote: Do you not see the contradiction in this?  It talks of us creating "hurtful" experiences and then goes on to say there is nothing wrong or bad.  If there is no wrong or bad, how do you define "hurtful" and "evil"?  It is logically incoherent

The interesting thing in the report is the idea that the spirit of God is expressing itself through everything that exists, including people. In the Ananda Marga philosophy which Little Rik follows the idea is that all the animate and inanimate objects of the universe are manifestations of God.  This doesn't automatically mean that either of these similar ideas are true of course, just that the human brain can create experiences where God being everything seems very real.

Before we try to understand why of this problem or why of that problem we should really try to understand the karma law.
What is the purpose of the karma law?
And before we try to understand the purpose of the karma law we should understand how the whole system works according to yoga philosophy.
The universe is made of consciousness (God consciousness)
The universe made of space, air, light, water and matter is none but consciousness that get transformed in  
these elements.
As the pure consciousness get transformed it goes so to speak into a dormant or latent stage.
The matter which has reached the last transformation has reached the end of the road.
It can't go any further but as the old saying goes .......what goes down has got to come back up and
coming back up only mean evolution.
Creation and evolution go hand in hand.
So creation in none but the God thought waves that turn into the five elements that compose the universe
and evolution is the dormant and latent God consciousness that goes back into God mind.
Instinct is what drive plants and animals towards higher degree of consciousness and to become humans.
As they become humans the instinct give way to free will and here the path to supreme consciousness become
harder because man become responsible for their actions.
Here the karma law become an absolute necessity in order to make us understand what is good and 
what is bad and to help us to go ahead in our journey towards the ocean of cosmic consciousness.
So evil as some religion mean really has no place in yoga philosophy.
It is all about sorting out our mistakes and the best way for sorting out our mistakes is to so to speak pay the bill
for our mistakes.
There is no evil, there is no hell, there is no God that hate anybody but there is a God that behave like a real father
that teach us how to get there.
There where we all belong. 

(August 3, 2015 at 11:05 am)Redbeard The Pink Wrote:

(August 3, 2015 at 10:42 am)Little Rik Wrote: Actually you don't have to be a genius to realize how the system works.
In the physical universe gravity lead (so to speak) the water towards the ocean.
On the abstract realm of consciousness a similar force lead the microcosm or unit mind
to merge in the macrocosm or the ocean of cosmic consciousness. 
Nothing really stay the same.
Everything move towards something bigger.
Nobody ever provided any evidence that the physical death means also the consciousness death.

No, Earth's gravity pulls things toward the center of Earth. The coalescing of bodies of water is incidental to their migration toward the lowest point.

It doesn't really matter where gravity pulls things to.
What matter is that everything and everybody is pulled towards something.
Resisting is futile.
Atheism is a contradictory belief.
On one side it deny God but God is none other that pure consciousness.
On the other hand it believe in expanding consciousness by learning more and more.
Learning only means expanding and expanding means going towards the goal of life
so it is a bit like driving your car with the brakes on.
Total madness indeed.