Imam Sajjad [as]: "And you do not veil yourself from creation except that their actions are done for other then you". 

Seeing God is one thing, and to understand how you see God and are connected to God and what faith actually is another. And being veiled from God is all together a different thing.

Faith to me is the degree of God's Name/face in my heart and the degree of vision of I have through it.   Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have been described to be men of sight. They saw through the power of the heart.

Through the souls eyes, they saw the real kingdom of the heavens and the earth. 

The true life is not matter nor is it simply an experience created by matter, the true life is God, and he is by what other life exists. 

When you see true life, true existence, the light, the glory, the beauty, and the power and his weapon within you, his connecting face and name in you, this is called faith.

In the heart of the kingdom, the true Leader and Guide is the light.

If it's belief without sight power, then this is not true belief as no soul truly believes in things without knowledge. That is why it is questioned when it follows what it has no knowledge of, and it goes against it's nature.

Believing Quran is the word of God is not faith, only seeing the Quran is the word of God through insight and reflection is faith. 

God's Holy Names and their holy station, the sight of them is faith. Simply knowing words and believing them to reflect God's attributes is not faith.

And the only way to see is through God himself, for he is the light/guide of the heavens and earth, the light of all light.

Any natural explanation, no matter how improbable, is far more likely than a supernatural explanation.

Nonetheless, the argument from personal experience is useless.

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?t...experience.

Quote:The argument from personal experience, also known as personal revelation, is the sensation of a direct experience of God or the supernatural. This can be a feeling of divine presence or in the form of conversation, vision or creative inspiration. This argument is particularly common among certain branches of Christianity where things like possession and levitating have been reported. Many believers do not have personal revelations and have other foundations for their beliefs.

Personal experiences are subjective and, as such, cannot be directly shared, only anecdotally shared.

(August 8, 2015 at 12:16 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Imam Sajjad [as]: "And you do not veil yourself from creation except that their actions are done for other then you". 

Seeing God is one thing, and to understand how you see God and are connected to God and what faith actually is another. And being veiled from God is all together a different thing.

Faith to me is the degree of God's Name/face in my heart and the degree of vision of I have through it.   Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have been described to be men of sight. They saw through the power of the heart.

Through the souls eyes, they saw the real kingdom of the heavens and the earth. 

The true life is not matter nor is it simply an experience created by matter, the true life is God, and he is by what other life exists. 

When you see true life, true existence, the light, the glory, the beauty, and the power and his weapon within you, his connecting face and name in you, this is called faith.

In the heart of the kingdom, the true Leader and Guide is the light.

If it's belief without sight power, then this is not true belief as no soul truly believes in things without knowledge. That is why it is questioned when it follows what it has no knowledge of, and it goes against it's nature.

Believing Quran is the word of God is not faith, only seeing the Quran is the word of God through insight and reflection is faith. 

God's Holy Names and their holy station, the sight of them is faith. Simply knowing words and believing them to reflect God's attributes is not faith.

And the only way to see is through God himself, for he is the light/guide of the heavens and earth, the light of all light.

You sure do type a whole lot of words, without making a whole lot sense.

I agree there, actually Min.

I wasn't using it as an argument to try to make a convincing case for God's existence to someone else. Just explaining why I personally, have faith.

It's like if I saw a troll in my home, when I'm otherwise perfectly mentally healthy and not on drugs. That would count as evidence, to me, that trolls exist lol. Would I be able to prove it to anyone? No, because I can't "prove" that I saw it. But my point was that just because I can't prove to anyone else that trolls exist, doesn't mean I don't have evidence for myself that they do.

(August 8, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree there, actually Min.

I wasn't using it as an argument to try to make a convincing case for God's existence to someone else. Just explaining why I personally, have faith.

It's like if I saw a troll in my home, when I'm otherwise perfectly mentally healthy and not on drugs. That would count as evidence, to me, that trolls exist lol. Would I be able to prove it to anyone? No, because I can't "prove" that I saw it. But my point was that just because I can't prove to anyone else that trolls exist, doesn't mean I don't have evidence for myself that they do.

If you saw a troll in your house and you had strong evidence for yourself, why would you still need faith? Wouldn't the strong evidence be enough to inform your belief?

(August 8, 2015 at 10:58 am)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(August 8, 2015 at 12:16 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Imam Sajjad [as]: "And you do not veil yourself from creation except that their actions are done for other then you". 

Seeing God is one thing, and to understand how you see God and are connected to God and what faith actually is another. And being veiled from God is all together a different thing.

Faith to me is the degree of God's Name/face in my heart and the degree of vision of I have through it.   Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob have been described to be men of sight. They saw through the power of the heart.

Through the souls eyes, they saw the real kingdom of the heavens and the earth. 

The true life is not matter nor is it simply an experience created by matter, the true life is God, and he is by what other life exists. 

When you see true life, true existence, the light, the glory, the beauty, and the power and his weapon within you, his connecting face and name in you, this is called faith.

In the heart of the kingdom, the true Leader and Guide is the light.

If it's belief without sight power, then this is not true belief as no soul truly believes in things without knowledge. That is why it is questioned when it follows what it has no knowledge of, and it goes against it's nature.

Believing Quran is the word of God is not faith, only seeing the Quran is the word of God through insight and reflection is faith. 

God's Holy Names and their holy station, the sight of them is faith. Simply knowing words and believing them to reflect God's attributes is not faith.

And the only way to see is through God himself, for he is the light/guide of the heavens and earth, the light of all light.

You sure do type a whole lot of words, without making a whole lot sense.

I don't see what about it doesn't make sense. You may not agree, but he answered the OP's question and I don't see anything that I can't understand as not making sense.

(August 8, 2015 at 1:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 8, 2015 at 10:58 am)Mr.wizard Wrote: You sure do type a whole lot of words, without making a whole lot sense.

I don't see what about it doesn't make sense. You may not agree, but he answered the OP's question and I don't see anything that I can't understand as not making sense.

Really? Gods face is on his heart and this gives him the power to see things with his heart that others can't with their eyes? I don't really care if that what it means it to him, that is not sensible. I am tired of being polite about these steaming piles of word salad, if I think its stupid then I'm going to say I think it's stupid. Idiotic ideas and explanations should be treated as such.

(August 8, 2015 at 1:40 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(August 8, 2015 at 1:32 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I agree there, actually Min.

I wasn't using it as an argument to try to make a convincing case for God's existence to someone else. Just explaining why I personally, have faith.

It's like if I saw a troll in my home, when I'm otherwise perfectly mentally healthy and not on drugs. That would count as evidence, to me, that trolls exist lol. Would I be able to prove it to anyone? No, because I can't "prove" that I saw it. But my point was that just because I can't prove to anyone else that trolls exist, doesn't mean I don't have evidence for myself that they do.

If you saw a troll in your house and you had strong evidence for yourself, why would you still need faith? Wouldn't the strong evidence be enough to inform your belief?

On my first post on here I said that faith isn't this blind thing where you believe just because, or you believe it just because you want to. At least not to me. Having faith is based on having gathered evidence that least you to believe a certain thing.

(August 8, 2015 at 2:03 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:

(August 8, 2015 at 1:40 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote: If you saw a troll in your house and you had strong evidence for yourself, why would you still need faith? Wouldn't the strong evidence be enough to inform your belief?

On my first post on here I said that faith isn't this blind thing where you believe just because, or you believe it just because you want to. At least not to me. Having faith is based on having gathered evidence that least you to believe a certain thing.

Yes your just taking personal experience and defining it as faith, my question is why do you need to call it faith, why not just personal experience?

(August 8, 2015 at 1:57 pm)Mr.wizard Wrote:

(August 8, 2015 at 1:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I don't see what about it doesn't make sense. You may not agree, but he answered the OP's question and I don't see anything that I can't understand as not making sense.

Really? Gods face is on his heart and this gives him the power to see things with his heart that others can't with their eyes? I don't really care if that what it means it to him, that is not sensible. I am tired of being polite about these steaming piles of word salad, if I think its stupid then I'm going to say I think it's stupid. Idiotic ideas and explanations should be treated as such.

He was using metaphor, but I understood the overall message of his post.

I tend to get defensive when someone takes the time to answer another person's question kindly, only to be criticized in a rude way. I know all too well what that feel like. Criticism of ideas, and debate, etc, is fine in my book. I'm just sensitive to how it gets done.