(August 13, 2015 at 7:33 pm)Dystopia Wrote: Abaris, I'm against single minded exposures and analysis of anything but you have to acknowledge scientific racism theories that were prevalent in the western world (not just Germany) and already being slightly carried out like it happened in California had a higher influence on Hitler's view that Christianity itself. There's little in Christianity to justify the kind of nazi racism and their scientific, physically measurable perfect race and how they split the white race into various sects (Nordics, Germans, Mediterraneans, etc.)

First, to call these theories scientific is doing them an honor they don't deserve. It's on the same lines as calling the medieval practice of bloodletting scientific. Or Lombroso's theory that you could recognize a criminal by measuring his face.

And when have I made the point that the Nazis were christians? They weren't in their large majority. But they weren't atheists either - again in their vast majority. To try and nail the nazi movement to one single factor is simply ignorant, since it misses the many influences it combined. There were many many obscure movements and role models in Austria as well as in Germany at the turn of the last century and you can actually look up where people like Heinrich Himmler or Josef Goebbels took their ideas from. They both had reading lists they penned down when being young men.

Yes, Euginics are in the mix. But they aren't the only ingredient. Not by a long chalk. But to see that, one has to actually study the vast material being available on the third Reich. Primary as well as secondary sources. I already mentioned the various influences Hitler got during his Viennese years between 1907 and 1913. After the first war, he had a German mentor called Dietrich Eckart, who was one of the cofounders of the NSDAP. And he was an antisemitic christian, who wasn't a follower of the Eugenic movement. Hitler was also friends with the Wagner family, who in turn was related to Houston Stewart Chamberlain. Again antisemitic to the bones but not in the Eugenics movement. And another important influence in Hitler's life.

So, again, as I said before. There are too many influences and factors to mention in one thread.

(August 13, 2015 at 7:58 pm)Dystopia Wrote: My primary source before quoting the wiki is a marxist friend of mine, who I assumed to be correct because he is very devout and reads all kind of marxist literature - Mistakes are more likely because when you hear something from someone you may eventually forget parts or even confuse things, so I apologize for that. 

Well, here's a revolutionary thought. Maybe not listening to your Marxist friend and take his words as fact, but to real historians, who actually spent years at University to learn the ropes. And spent additional years doing research on certain matters.

I'm honestly amazed that people think they know all about history. But they wouldn't apply the same standards to a field like medicine. Or would you listen to your friend with the same credulity if he was a fan of medicine and read a lot of books about it? And yes, on comes the inevitable wiki link. They are infallible after all.

(August 13, 2015 at 8:05 pm)abaris Wrote:

(August 13, 2015 at 7:58 pm)Dystopia Wrote: My primary source before quoting the wiki is a marxist friend of mine, who I assumed to be correct because he is very devout and reads all kind of marxist literature - Mistakes are more likely because when you hear something from someone you may eventually forget parts or even confuse things, so I apologize for that. 

Well, here's a revolutionary thought. Maybe not listening to your Marxist friend and take his words as fact, but to real historians, who actually spent years at University to learn the ropes. And spent additional years doing research on certain matters.

I'm honestly amazed that people think they know all about history. But they wouldn't apply the same standards to a field like medicine. Or would you listen to your friend with the same credulity if he was a fan of medicine and read a lot of books about it?

Wow there Sherlock - I listen to my friends because I trust them and care about them and since the feeling seems reciprocate I believe they won't lie to me until otherwise proven. To understand an ideology an adherent is worth a thousand times more than any scholar. I have met national-socialists even though I am not friends with them, and trust me, the way outside scholars describe racists and the way they describe themselves and why they are like that is completely different, it's like saying an historical study of Christianity allows you to understand all of it without listening to priests and believers themselves.

Are you kidding me? If I want to know about marxism, I can easily ask my few marxist friends or my former political science professor, both of whom know what they're talking about. Do you expect me to go to the bookstore and buy a book on medicine anytime a doctor tells me to take X or Y pills, or should I trust that, because they're doctors, they know what they're doing?

There's a difference between being a fan or sympathizer and being a full Marxist yourself, it is a transition that changes your life and your worldview and can have horrible repercussions like your work performance (for example when you realize capitalism sucks you stop caring about working properly because you don't want to feed the system) - A devout Marxist, as well as a devout anything that understands what he or she is, is more than qualified to talk about their ideology, it's history and repercussions. My stepdad being someone who is slightly fascist and lived during the dictatorship taught me more about fascism and censorship than teachers did.

Oh, and usually when someone tells you something you forget bits of it or mentally alter some parts because your prejudices are always there, so naturally my first exposition of the census taking place in the USRR was not fortunate, but I corrected it later and it turns out it matches what other people told me, despite not being expert Historians

Can we at least agree that all Nazi Christian Nazis were Christian?

I don't see people calling communism a "non-dragon belief based belief system".

Yes, most communists claim that religion is explicitely incompatible with communism and therefore wrong. They will probably not sat the same of dragons.

Hmm...

Well, thinking everything is made of jelly which grants super powers when eaten and make you infinitely rich is also probably incompatible with communism. Theism is just one of a vast range of delusions which could cause a problem.