(August 19, 2015 at 9:08 pm)abaris Wrote:

(August 19, 2015 at 8:58 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: Lots of people use the same arguments as Nazis. But why are you bringing extreme right wing groups into this discussion at all? That's a very small percentage of the people who are critical of Muslims.

Because they're influencial. At least in many European countries. Because they're happy to confirm every prejudice the ordinary citizens may have. Because they're presenting scapegoats at every single opportunity. Which, again, is the exact same thing the nazis did and how the thrived in economically difficult times.

And again, being critical of muslims means being critical of anyone sharing the coincidence of birth or upbringing. Which confirms more or less my point. It throws Bosnians, Turks, Kurds, Arabs, Indonesians, Azerbajans, Persians, Sunnis and Shias, numerous other ethnicities, ISIS and Al Quaida, who are opposed to each other, all into the same kettle without any regards of their affiliations, their ways of life and if they're going about their daily business or if they are radicals. Out comes an ignorant stew of prejudice.

I agree with you about everything that you posted there. However many people use these sort of arguments about right wing groups and nazis etc as a shield for criticism of Islam, rather than Muslims. I've been Islam-bashing (as you correctly said, Islam and Muslims should be separated) for years and it's impossible to escape that constant association with nazis and the dishonest tactics, largely used by politically correct non-muslims. It's dishonest, the same way the very often repeated quote in my first post is totally dishonest and misleading as it implies arguments that nobody is using, not even euro-nazi fucks. Also Islam is a right wing ideology. It's about as socially right wing as exists on this earth.

(August 19, 2015 at 4:04 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: How many times do we hear this from non-muslims defending Islam? I probably hear it once a week in some form or another. No shit! You know what I have never heard in my life? Anybody say "All Muslims are terrorists" Nobody has ever said this. It's like people are arguing against a statement that has never been made ever. It's dishonest and distracting from the real problems that we have with Islam. Mainly that it preaches morality from the 6th century.

It's more in response to how certain people treat Arabians post-9/11 than what anyone specifically said. I've seen plenty of people make dumb comments in regards to people just wearing a turban on a plane because they associate all of them with the various terrorist groups that are out there, but don't feel the same way of Caucasians after a mass shooting.

At the end of the day from what I can figure they're mainly responding to racism.

(August 19, 2015 at 9:50 pm)ToriJ Wrote:

(August 19, 2015 at 4:04 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: How many times do we hear this from non-muslims defending Islam? I probably hear it once a week in some form or another. No shit! You know what I have never heard in my life? Anybody say "All Muslims are terrorists" Nobody has ever said this. It's like people are arguing against a statement that has never been made ever. It's dishonest and distracting from the real problems that we have with Islam. Mainly that it preaches morality from the 6th century.

It's more in response to how certain people treat Arabians post-9/11 than what anyone specifically said. I've seen plenty of people make dumb comments in regards to people just wearing a turban on a plane because they associate all of them with the various terrorist groups that are out there, but don't feel the same way of Caucasians after a mass shooting.

At the end of the day from what I can figure they're mainly responding to racism.

I think you are probably right, which is of course another dishonest tactic that non-muslims use as a shield against criticism of Islam. It's pretty easy to criticize Islam and be called a racist, even though it has nothing to do with race. They might have the very best of intentions, but the most ignorant and dishonest of tactics.

Not all muslims are terrorists and more to the point, not all terrorists are muslims.

I think the biggest problem they have is that they embody a line from the movie "The Mummy."

It is better to be the right hand of the devil than in his path.


Whether or not they support terrorists is almost irrelevant because they do nothing to oppose them.  Oh sure....after every bomb goes off some mullah says "the innocent should not be targeted BUT" and the but being that they did something to piss muslims off.

It is only the nut jobs who seem to have a pair of balls.  The moderates are a bunch of pussies.

(August 19, 2015 at 10:12 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote:

(August 19, 2015 at 9:50 pm)ToriJ Wrote: It's more in response to how certain people treat Arabians post-9/11 than what anyone specifically said. I've seen plenty of people make dumb comments in regards to people just wearing a turban on a plane because they associate all of them with the various terrorist groups that are out there, but don't feel the same way of Caucasians after a mass shooting.

At the end of the day from what I can figure they're mainly responding to racism.

I think you are probably right, which is of course another dishonest tactic that non-muslims use as a shield against criticism of Islam. It's pretty easy to criticize Islam and be called a racist, even though it has nothing to do with race. They might have the very best of intentions, but the most ignorant and dishonest of tactics.

I agree. It also doesn't help those who think Arab and Muslims are the same thing. You can be any race and still be a Muslim. The Boston Marathon Bomber for example definitely wasn't Arab.

On the flip-side, you can be an Arab and think Islam is stupid.

(August 19, 2015 at 10:12 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: It's pretty easy to criticize Islam and be called a racist, even though it has nothing to do with race. They might have the very best of intentions, but the most ignorant and dishonest of tactics.

The reason why the nazi comparison comes up that often in that kind of discussion is the terminology used. First, the broad brush and then the actual terminology used in many cases. Many of those throwing muslim and Islam together are blindly repeating the talking points of their resident rightwing party or organisation, since it plays to their already existing prejudiices anyway. And these parties and organisations know exactly what they are doing.

Also, I don't make that much of a distinction between racism and bigotry. The underlying concept is the same. Both are directed at particular groups of people, painting them as inferior or otherwise not deserving of the same respect as the hometeam, just because they belong to that particular group. And carried to it's extreme both have the same ugly result. Everything else is pure semantics.

Third, many people actually don't know what they are talking about. Especially the Western tabloids and networks splash it all over the headlines when a single Westerner is killed by ISIS. But the fact that they kill thousands of fellow muslims on their way to killing one Westerner isn't newsworthy. If one islamistic shootout happens, it's again all over the headlines and live reports are made. But none of these media outlets mentions the FBI- or Europol-statistics that show, only 4 to 5 percent of terrorist attacks in any given year, are carried out by religious extremists. And this low percentage isn't even Islamistic only.

That paints a wrong picture for people, who only inform themselves by using mainstream media. And it's important to point that out in any given discussion, since I've met and talked to people, who changed their minds after being presented with the real facts. One bigot less is always worth fighting for.

(August 19, 2015 at 7:12 pm)abaris Wrote: In my book the point is moot to begin with, since it's not the problem. He's arguing against people rushing to the defense of muslims, but hardly anyone uses his OP argument.

You must be living on a different planet to what I am then, I hear this argument all the time.

Nobody ever says "not all Christians are terrorists" or "not all Sikhs are terrorists". If we were living in the period after Operation Blue Star then we might be talking about Sikhs in the same way we talk about Muhammadans today. Air India Flight 182 anyone? Every religion has both "reasonable people" and "nut jobs", though to a nut job the reasonable people are the nut jobs I suppose.

(August 20, 2015 at 4:08 am)MrNoMorePropaganda Wrote: Nobody ever says "not all Christians are terrorists" or "not all Sikhs are terrorists". If we were living in the period after Operation Blue Star then we might be talking about Sikhs in the same way we talk about Muhammadans today. Air India Flight 182 anyone? Every religion has both "reasonable people" and "nut jobs", though to a nut job the reasonable people are the nut jobs I suppose.

Um... 99% of killings by terrorist attacks were done by Muslims last year, and they are on track to do even more this year. I don't think a single incident can take precedence over 99%... do you?

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(August 20, 2015 at 3:54 am)abaris Wrote: The reason why the nazi comparison comes up that often in that kind of discussion is the terminology used. First, the broad brush and then the actual terminology used in many cases. Many of those throwing muslim and Islam together are blindly repeating the talking points of their resident rightwing party or organisation, since it plays to their already existing prejudiices anyway. And these parties and organisations know exactly what they are doing.

Also, I don't make that much of a distinction between racism and bigotry. The underlying concept is the same. Both are directed at particular groups of people, painting them as inferior or otherwise not deserving of the same respect as the hometeam, just because they belong to that particular group. And carried to it's extreme both have the same ugly result. Everything else is pure semantics.

Third, many people actually don't know what they are talking about. Especially the Western tabloids and networks splash it all over the headlines when a single Westerner is killed by ISIS. But the fact that they kill thousands of fellow muslims on their way to killing one Westerner isn't newsworthy. If one islamistic shootout happens, it's again all over the headlines and live reports are made. But none of these media outlets mentions the FBI- or Europol-statistics that show, only 4 to 5 percent of terrorist attacks in any given year, are carried out by religious extremists. And this low percentage isn't even Islamistic only.

That paints a wrong picture for people, who only inform themselves by using mainstream media. And it's important to point that out in any given discussion, since I've met and talked to people, who changed their minds after being presented with the real facts. One bigot less is always worth fighting for.

No, most of them do not deserve my respect. They worship a pedophile warlord that tells them to kill nonbelievers, and gays, and jews. They do not deserve the smallest amount of respect that I have to offer for anyone religious.

And can you please cite your sources. We don't need atheists to start saying unsubstantiated things on here now, do we?

Oh, and let me guess. Do you follow The Young Turks?

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(August 19, 2015 at 9:50 pm)Ayen Wrote: It's more in response to how certain people treat Arabians post-9/11 than what anyone specifically said. I've seen plenty of people make dumb comments in regards to people just wearing a turban on a plane because they associate all of them with the various terrorist groups that are out there, but don't feel the same way of Caucasians after a mass shooting.

At the end of the day from what I can figure they're mainly responding to racism.

Can you apostatize from being muslim? Yes, you can. Can you apostatize from your race? No, you can't. There for it is not racist to make any statements about muslims. Got it?

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(August 19, 2015 at 10:30 pm)Ayen Wrote: I agree. It also doesn't help those who think Arab and Muslims are the same thing. You can be any race and still be a Muslim. The Boston Marathon Bomber for example definitely wasn't Arab.

On the flip-side, you can be an Arab and think Islam is stupid.

Does't help what, exactly? You? I agree, Arabs and Muslims are not the same thing. So what? Who said they were? Exactly! You can be any race and still be a Muslim. THAT IS WHY IT IS NOT RAC IST.

I can tell you this : Within every single muslim .. there is a little terrorist crawling to go out !