Picture a rainforest the size of continental America, with all the complex biosphere that implies. Now picture one single atom of gold somewhere in that rainforest. Can it be shown that the rainforest has been fine tuned to produce that gold? Now answer that same question on the scale of the Universe.

Nicely said.

Btw, king, I made a long rant on why the Earth isn't so hospitable to life with links and everything, and in the post below that one Alex explains rather well why the fine tuning doesn't support intelligent design:

http://atheistforums.org/thread-35306.html

(August 20, 2015 at 4:57 am)Neimenovic Wrote:

Quote:My point here is I believe the universe to be fine tuned to immense precision to support life only on this planet.  I don't believe there is life anywhere else.

First off, I recall you mentioning mathematical improbability. By the sheer number of planets, it's reasonable to assume there is at least one with conditions similar enough to those of Earth that life can exist....But I guess that's beside the point anyway.

It's actually precisely the point Neim. Kingpin reckon's there's no life elsewhere, that ours is a unique planet that's been fine tuned? I wonder what he'll say when we inevitably find it. Because we will. I think there's a really strong chance we could find evidence of life elsewhere in our lifetimes.

What he says implies... hell it pretty much states, that our planet is completely unique in it being fine tuned. That the entire universe is created and formed with the Earth in mind. There's no other planet out there like ours. That's demonstrably not the case, and it shows a real ignorance to modern astronomy. We've already found planets remarkably similar to Earth, and we're not even looking at a drop in the ocean of what's actually out there. I think most astronomers would probably estimate the amount of Earth like planets out there, numbers in the millions, if not billions, across the entire universe. Maybe more. We can also clearly see that the universe does not exist for the sole purposes of the Earth. There is no evidence of fine tuning, in fact the actual evidence implies the complete opposite.

Without a doubt our planet is not the only one out there with conditions suitable for life, and it is certainly not unique. To make the summation that our planet is unique and that it's the only one out there, is IMHO stupendously arrogant. Even if we haven't confirmed life elsewhere yet, there is no logical line of reasoning to assume that the Earth has been fine tuned. I'd go as far as to say that this viewpoint is diametrically opposed to what we (or should I say the scientists and astronomers) currently know about the universe. There are however very logical lines of reasoning to suggest that we're not alone out there.

It's easy to say "oh but we haven't found life yet", sure. But nobody truly knew the Earth was round until it was actually proven, but did that discount all the indications that it was indeed round, before the hypothesis was confirmed? Did it make the doubters any less ignorant?

Finding life extra-Earth will change nothing in his statement. In fact, he could claim that it's more proof that the Universe is finetuned for life.

(August 20, 2015 at 6:57 am)Stimbo Wrote: Finding life extra-Earth will change nothing in his statement. In fact, he could claim that it's more proof that the Universe is finetuned for life.

No, it would change everything in his statement. He's not claiming the universe is fine tuned for life. He's claiming the universe is fine tuned for life on Earth. Big difference. 

Regardless though, there's still no logical basis to assume either is true.

(August 20, 2015 at 6:52 am)Napoléon Wrote:

(August 20, 2015 at 4:57 am)Neimenovic Wrote: First off, I recall you mentioning mathematical improbability. By the sheer number of planets, it's reasonable to assume there is at least one with conditions similar enough to those of Earth that life can exist....But I guess that's beside the point anyway.

It's actually precisely the point Neim. Kingpin reckon's there's no life elsewhere, that ours is a unique planet that's been fine tuned? I wonder what he'll say when we inevitably find it. Because we will. I think there's a really strong chance we could find evidence of life elsewhere in our lifetimes.

What he says implies... hell it pretty much states, that our planet is completely unique in it being fine tuned. That the entire universe is created and formed with the Earth in mind. There's no other planet out there like ours. That's demonstrably not the case, and it shows a real ignorance to modern astronomy. We've already found planets remarkably similar to Earth, and we're not even looking at a drop in the ocean of what's actually out there. I think most astronomers would probably estimate the amount of Earth like planets out there, numbers in the millions, if not billions, across the entire universe. Maybe more. We can also clearly see that the universe does not exist for the sole purposes of the Earth. There is no evidence of fine tuning, in fact the actual evidence implies the complete opposite.

Without a doubt our planet is not the only one out there with conditions suitable for life, and it is certainly not unique. To make the summation that our planet is unique and that it's the only one out there, is IMHO stupendously arrogant. Even if we haven't confirmed life elsewhere yet, there is no logical line of reasoning to assume that the Earth has been fine tuned. I'd go as far as to say that this viewpoint is diametrically opposed to what we (or should I say the scientists and astronomers) currently know about the universe. There are however very logical lines of reasoning to suggest that we're not alone out there.

It's easy to say "oh but we haven't found life yet", sure. But nobody truly knew the Earth was round until it was actually proven, but did that discount all the indications that it was indeed round, before the hypothesis was confirmed? Did it make the doubters any less ignorant?

Napoleon you are quite right, that I am outwardly stating that this planet is the only planet we will find sentient life on.  If it is proven that there exists sentient life on any other planet in the universe, I would have to be abandon my belief in God as I understand Him.  I believe humans are unique, not the planet, let's get that clear.  I'm very well aware of the findings of modern astronomy and other "earth-like" planets.  But I believe humans are unique and created by God and were given this planet to exist on.  I will get in to the fine tuning in a little bit, but I'm sure you are aware that leading scientists, including Professor Hawking, talk about the appearance of precision, design and fine-tuning with the cosmological constant and so on.  That any marginal difference in certain parameters and the universe would not exist as we know it.

(August 20, 2015 at 6:15 am)Stimbo Wrote: Picture a rainforest the size of continental America, with all the complex biosphere that implies. Now picture one single atom of gold somewhere in that rainforest. Can it be shown that the rainforest has been fine tuned to produce that gold? Now answer that same question on the scale of the Universe.

Stimbo, this is not analogous.  A single atom of gold is not nearly as complex as the Earth, and even less so than a human.  Something more analogous would go like this:

Picture a rainforest the size of continental America, with all the complex biosphere that implies. Now picture an atom sized planet with it's own biosphere with immensely complex subatomic sized sentient beings somewhere in that rainforest. Can it be shown that the rainforest has been fine tuned to produce that?

(August 20, 2015 at 8:15 am)lkingpinl Wrote: [...]Picture a rainforest the size of continental America, with all the complex biosphere that implies. Now picture an atom sized planet with it's own biosphere with immensely complex subatomic sized sentient beings somewhere in that rainforest. Can it be shown that the rainforest has been fine tuned to produce that?

Nope.

(August 20, 2015 at 8:11 am)lkingpinl Wrote: I will get in to the fine tuning in a little bit, but I'm sure you are aware that leading scientists, including Professor Hawking, talk about the appearance of precision, design and fine-tuning with the cosmological constant and so on.  That any marginal difference in certain parameters and the universe would not exist as we know it.

Exactly! What kind of a designer creates something a hair away from a catastrophe? Who builds a house inches away from a steep gorge?

Thank you for improving my analogy and then failing utterly to see how it obliterates your original contention even more decisively.