(February 16, 2009 at 1:15 pm)jonmcculloch Wrote:

(February 16, 2009 at 1:01 pm)bozo Wrote: from how you see things I would say you are way to the right of him. You are well into the capitalist ethos from how you describe what concerns you....YOU.

I wouldn't put myself on the left/right line at all. I think that's too, well 2 dimensional.

Quote:I haven't read " Atlas Shrugged " but I'll read it if you read " The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists " and then we can debate. Deal?

Definitely, my man. I love books and I'll read anything of quality. Moreover, I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways. I used to be very pro-death penalty, but someone showed me a very convincing argument to turn my opinion around 180 degrees.

-- Jon

Jon, you can put yourself wherever you like but how you are perceived is up to others.
Now who is the author of your recommended book?

(February 16, 2009 at 3:50 pm)bozo Wrote: Jon, you can put yourself wherever you like but how you are perceived is up to others.

Of course.

Quite. And perception is subjective. As we know, it has little correlation with objective reality.

Quote:Now who is the author of your recommended book?

Ayn Rand.

And of yours?

-- Jon

(February 16, 2009 at 3:59 pm)jonmcculloch Wrote:

(February 16, 2009 at 3:50 pm)bozo Wrote: Jon, you can put yourself wherever you like but how you are perceived is up to others.

Of course.

Quite. And perception is subjective. As we know, it has little correlation with objective reality.

Quote:Now who is the author of your recommended book?

Ayn Rand.

And of yours?

-- Jon

Robert Tressell.

(February 16, 2009 at 1:01 pm)bozo Wrote: Adrian, you ask the question about input with experience only of capitalist society. It would be different in a socialist society. Can I invite you to read " The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists " by Robert Tressell? You should be able to get it from your library or on ebay for a modest price. It is far more eloquent than I could ever be on the evils of capitalism and a vision for a socialist future ( it's also highly critical of religion too! ). It is THE socialist classic and an easy, entertaining read as well. It will explin why I am like I am, which puzzles you a bit, I know.
It's also far easier than Marx!

I don't want to read about the evils of capitalism, or the vision for a socialist future. I want to know the answer to a few very specific and simple questions:

1) How do we split the wealth in socialism so it remains fair?
2) How do we handle people who refuse to work?
3) How do we set up such a system in the first place and make it work?

The last question isn't as important, but I would really like an answer to the first two. I don't see why I should read an entire book in order to get some simple answers. Perhaps when you have answered the simple stuff and I agree with it, I will read the book.

In a Capitalist system, the answers are easy.
1) The better job you have and the harder you work, the more money you earn.
2) People who refuse to work get no money.
3) The system is set up by having levels of demand on both sides. People have a demand for work to meet their demands for money.

I'm interested in your answers to the questions.

(February 16, 2009 at 6:10 pm)Tiberius Wrote: 1) How do we split the wealth in socialism so it remains fair?
2) How do we handle people who refuse to work?
3) How do we set up such a system in the first place and make it work?

The last question isn't as important, but I would really like an answer to the first two.

Actually... while I can't speak for your desires... the answer to the 3rd question is the most important of all, because it's simply "we can't".

Even if we assume such a system is possible (and I dispute it is, because economies are complex adaptive systems and cannot be controlled from the top), but even if we allow it is, the administration of such a system calls for ever greater bureaucracy and restriction of the individual liberty of the people it's meant to help.

In short, we come to serve the system instead of the system serving us.

-- Jon

P.S. I agree with the three things you said that I didn't quote.

(February 16, 2009 at 6:10 pm)Tiberius Wrote:

(February 16, 2009 at 1:01 pm)bozo Wrote: Adrian, you ask the question about input with experience only of capitalist society. It would be different in a socialist society. Can I invite you to read " The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists " by Robert Tressell? You should be able to get it from your library or on ebay for a modest price. It is far more eloquent than I could ever be on the evils of capitalism and a vision for a socialist future ( it's also highly critical of religion too! ). It is THE socialist classic and an easy, entertaining read as well. It will explin why I am like I am, which puzzles you a bit, I know.
It's also far easier than Marx!

I don't want to read about the evils of capitalism, or the vision for a socialist future. I want to know the answer to a few very specific and simple questions:

1) How do we split the wealth in socialism so it remains fair?
2) How do we handle people who refuse to work?
3) How do we set up such a system in the first place and make it work?

The last question isn't as important, but I would really like an answer to the first two. I don't see why I should read an entire book in order to get some simple answers. Perhaps when you have answered the simple stuff and I agree with it, I will read the book.

In a Capitalist system, the answers are easy.
1) The better job you have and the harder you work, the more money you earn.
2) People who refuse to work get no money.
3) The system is set up by having levels of demand on both sides. People have a demand for work to meet their demands for money.

I'm interested in your answers to the questions.

This is becoming a bit silly. I can keep on answering your questions but you won't accept the answers because your mindset won't allow it . I have to pinch myself at this point because I'm beginning to sound like Daystar!
I am suggesting you read the book that has influenced a generation of people and won them over to the idea of socialism. I can't do it any better. Try the book....my prediction is that you won't complete it, because you won't agree with it.
I hope you will try and I hope you prove me wrong.
Meanwhile, argue around the edges with Jon.

Ok, apologies. Can you point me to the post(s) where you provided the answers to the questions? My mindset will allow answers that make sense, so either I missed your answers or they didn't make any sense to me, but I'm willing to have another go. I have too many books to read at the moment about more important things to indulge a novel, so I hope you understand.

Seeing brain surgeons being paid the same as MacDonalds workers is a very odd concept indeed But I'm open to the idea, things may not be as they seem...

(February 17, 2009 at 5:00 pm)LukeMC Wrote: Seeing brain surgeons being paid the same as MacDonalds workers is a very odd concept indeed But I'm open to the idea, things may not be as they seem...

OK Luke, who do you value most....the garbage collector or an investment banker?

---

(February 16, 2009 at 8:47 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Ok, apologies. Can you point me to the post(s) where you provided the answers to the questions? My mindset will allow answers that make sense, so either I missed your answers or they didn't make any sense to me, but I'm willing to have another go. I have too many books to read at the moment about more important things to indulge a novel, so I hope you understand.

Adrian, you said in a previous post that you didn't know a lot about politics but that you were keen to learn. I am offering you the best education about socialism you can get, in my humble opinion. It's your choice.

---

(February 16, 2009 at 1:15 pm)jonmcculloch Wrote:

(February 16, 2009 at 1:01 pm)bozo Wrote: from how you see things I would say you are way to the right of him. You are well into the capitalist ethos from how you describe what concerns you....YOU.

I wouldn't put myself on the left/right line at all. I think that's too, well 2 dimensional.

Quote:I haven't read " Atlas Shrugged " but I'll read it if you read " The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists " and then we can debate. Deal?

Definitely, my man. I love books and I'll read anything of quality. Moreover, I'm willing to be shown the error of my ways. I used to be very pro-death penalty, but someone showed me a very convincing argument to turn my opinion around 180 degrees.

-- Jon

Just revisited this....what argument made you against the death penalty?

(February 17, 2009 at 6:36 pm)bozo Wrote: Adrian, you said in a previous post that you didn't know a lot about politics but that you were keen to learn. I am offering you the best education about socialism you can get, in my humble opinion. It's your choice.

I am keen to learn, and I reckon talking to a socialist and getting their answers will give me a lot more insight than reading an almost century old book. I want to know how socialism would work today, in the modern world. This is why I ask question (also because I don't have the time with my studies to read extra books).

Your refusal to point to where you have supposedly answered my three questions (which I admit I cannot find even though I've re-read most of the thread) just makes me wonder if you actually know the answers yourself. To be honest I'm a bit disappointed. Excuses like "your mindset won't allow it" won't work on me. I have a rational and open minded outlook, so if something is explained to me and doesn't make sense, there isn't much I can do about it. Either it doesn't make sense because it cannot work, or because it was badly explained. This is why I ask the questions, because I am hopeful that it is the latter.