The question of the Death Penalty is a fairly simple one to answer, in my book, from an atheistic perspective.

We look at the data: whether or not you agree with the righteousness of killing in the name of the state on principle, in order for the state to have any moral right to kill a citizen, we must have absolute certainty in their guilt, or we are no better than the murderers we are executing. So what is the data on conviction-certainty?

"In April 2015, the Death Penalty Information Center said that there had been 152 exonerations of prisoners on death row in the United States since 1973.[1]

University of Michigan law professor Samuel Gross led a team of experts in the law and in statistics that estimated the likely number of unjust convictions. The study determined that at least 4% of people on death row were and are innocent. [2] The research was peer reviewed and the prestigious Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences published it [referenced in Scientific American article, at citation #3], Gross has no doubt that some innocent people have been executed." (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution)

"Researchers estimate that more than 340 U.S. inmates that could have been exonerated were sentenced to death since 1973." [3]

And these are just the known wrongful convictions. There are other articles, linked in the Wiki, which show strong suspicion and even proof of wrongful executions. There is only a degree of certainty that even the best justice system can attain, and I would forward that it cannot be high enough for us to murder in the name of the state, particularly given that anyone who has reviewed our system has pointed to its many flaws and prejudices. [4] This broken system can be linked to our Judeo-Christian heritage and its peculiar views on the nature of guilt and justice. [5]

List of citations:

[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/04/us/ant....html?_r=1
[2] http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/ap...s-innocent
[3] http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...convicted/
[4] http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post...is-broken/
[5] https://sojo.net/articles/how-poor-theol...ice-system

(September 7, 2015 at 12:26 pm)Parkers Tan Wrote:

(September 6, 2015 at 10:05 pm)IATIA Wrote: A deterrent makes you not want to do something.  Dead people do not want to do something.

That quite the scorched-earth approach to changing someone's mind, don't you agree?

Perhaps, but the likes of Bundy and Son of Sam should be removed from society, not taken care of.  I am particular to whom the capital punishment is applied.

(September 7, 2015 at 12:30 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(September 7, 2015 at 1:09 am)Handprint Wrote: I think Cerebus brings up a good point about not being able to replace years lost. After all, years and days of our lives are all we have. But also think about this, even if you are found innocent and released, there will still be a stigma. There will be people who still believe you did it, and still avoid you because they think you are a bad person. maybe by the reason of you being in prison so long and it probably having changed you for the ill.

The world is not kind or accepting of people who have been released from prison. People are not well integrated. They are shunned, and outcasts. Hell, the person might go and re-offend again because they can't live anywhere else besides prison, or all their family is dead etc.

It really isn't good either way you look at it.

Thank you for posting this. I just spent 9 years (flat!) of my life incarcerated on false charges, while the state prosecutors who were behind the conviction on shady "evidence" (and from blocking exonerating evidence by way of a trial judge who had just been elected right out of that District Attorney's office, as often happens) did everything in their power to delay and/or hamper the appellate review process. My conviction was just overturned in late January, with me actually being released in April--you'd think that an appellate victory means immediate release, but it doesn't, as the local judge still has to issue the official finding based on the Supreme Court's ruling, and order the case dismissed and the prisoner released--and even without the "felony box" check-mark on my job applications, and despite having a degree in science, I still can't explain to employers why I haven't had a job in nine years, so I wind up having to talk about my false conviction. They never believe me, as I have yet to receive a call-back from an interview, an issue I never once had, prior to imprisonment. Even the "taint" of a conviction that turned out to be wrongful does not wash off. Luckily, I have managed to self-employ in the shop of an old friend who builds custom bikes, which is now my "new career". I had a relatively easy time in prison, despite being sent to "Maximum Security" camps, because my education allowed me to take up "jailhouse lawyering", working on behalf of inmates oppressed by the system, which rendered me untouchable by the predators of various sorts in there... others are generally not so fortunate, since poverty, lack of family support, and lack of education are primary predictive factors in who is vulnerable to incarceration, and the gang leaders and other predators on the inside know how to spot and recruit or exploit those who are easily misled. The implications for society are staggering; even with my high IQ, mental toughness, family support, and strong educational background, I have myriad symptoms of PTSD that have clearly emerged since being released. I can only imagine what it is like for those without my advantages.

The damage the prison system does to everyone, the guilty and the innocent (which some estimates put as high as 1 in 10, and even the US Department of Justice estimates place at 1 in 50 wrongfully incarcerated, not even counting those who are massively over-charged by prosecutors for petty/minor crimes, as a way of ensuring a plea-negotiation through fear of more serious sentence, if they insist on going to trial and lose), is incalculably deep. It is made worse by the damage we have done to Due Process as a result of trying to "grease the wheels" on behalf of the Drug War, and the system's desire to facilitate its own operation-- in many cases, the prosecutor's chair becomes the path to higher office in state government, where most of the laws are made, so new legislation tends to adopt their peculiar mindset, with regard to laws and their enforcement. When you have a "Public Defender", the overworked free lawyers that are often just doing that job until they can get into the prosecutor's chair, you have little chance of winning at trial, and everyone knows it. Add to the corrupt political arena the money and influence of the for-profit prisons and corporations that profit from the mass incarceration of Americans, and you have a recipe for disaster... which is exactly what we have in this nation.

---

I am both happy and sad that you can relate to what I said. Happy because it means what I wrote was accurate, and sad because…what I wrote was accurate.

I'm sorry you had to go through that and for how society treats you. At least the subject of prison reform is in the makeup of at least one presidential candidate's platform this election season. If it can help even a few people, I would be glad. People don't deserve this.

(September 7, 2015 at 2:09 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: The question of the Death Penalty is a fairly simple one to answer, in my book, from an atheistic perspective.

There is no such thing as an atheist perspective. There's only an individual perspective as is shown by the mere fact that I despise comments made by atheists in this very thread.

(September 7, 2015 at 9:07 pm)abaris Wrote:

(September 7, 2015 at 2:09 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: The question of the Death Penalty is a fairly simple one to answer, in my book, from an atheistic perspective.

There is no such thing as an atheist perspective. There's only an individual perspective as is shown by the mere fact that I despise comments made by atheists in this very thread.

"From an atheistic perspective" = "without a God-answer", as in "let's look at the data" versus "what does the Wholly Babble say?"

(September 7, 2015 at 9:13 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(September 7, 2015 at 9:07 pm)abaris Wrote: There is no such thing as an atheist perspective. There's only an individual perspective as is shown by the mere fact that I despise comments made by atheists in this very thread.

"From an atheistic perspective" = "without a God-answer", as in "let's look at the data" versus "what does the Wholly Babble say?"

Except there are a lot of people who operate just as irrationally as the God-botherers, who react only through emotion and not at all through intellect, reason, rationality or critical thinking.  Just because someone is an atheist doesn't make them rational in everything they do, unfortunately.

(September 8, 2015 at 2:17 am)Cephus Wrote:

(September 7, 2015 at 9:13 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: "From an atheistic perspective" = "without a God-answer", as in "let's look at the data" versus "what does the Wholly Babble say?"

Except there are a lot of people who operate just as irrationally as the God-botherers, who react only through emotion and not at all through intellect, reason, rationality or critical thinking.  Just because someone is an atheist doesn't make them rational in everything they do, unfortunately.

Well, yeah.

But are you seriously trying to argue that there's not a difference in mindset (perspective), regardless of the human pattern-seeking brain's tendency to wander away from it if we are not careful, between the atheistic and theistic worldviews?

We can start with simple things, like "they believe in magical causation for events and Revealed Truths™, which we do not accept as part of reality".

(September 8, 2015 at 3:12 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(September 8, 2015 at 2:17 am)Cephus Wrote: Except there are a lot of people who operate just as irrationally as the God-botherers, who react only through emotion and not at all through intellect, reason, rationality or critical thinking.  Just because someone is an atheist doesn't make them rational in everything they do, unfortunately.

Well, yeah.

But are you seriously trying to argue that there's not a difference in mindset (perspective), regardless of the human pattern-seeking brain's tendency to wander away from it if we are not careful, between the atheistic and theistic worldviews?

We can start with simple things, like "they believe in magical causation for events and Revealed Truths™, which we do not accept as part of reality".

There is no "atheist worldview".  Atheism is the lack of belief in gods, full stop.  There are all kinds of people who are atheists and there is nothing that any of them have inherently in common beyond not believing.  Even if the majority might take that statement seriously, you probably can't take another step that the majority of atheists would share.

I have always supported the Death Penalty when the accused has been convicted of a capital offense, and I will always support it as long as they are definitely, 100% guilty.  Such as committing murders on video and there is no denying what they did, etc.

If there is any chance they are not guilty, then the death penalty should be off limits.  Only used in rare circumstances, but its definitely necessary.  My opinion.

(September 8, 2015 at 3:12 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

(September 8, 2015 at 2:17 am)Cephus Wrote: Except there are a lot of people who operate just as irrationally as the God-botherers, who react only through emotion and not at all through intellect, reason, rationality or critical thinking.  Just because someone is an atheist doesn't make them rational in everything they do, unfortunately.

Well, yeah.

But are you seriously trying to argue that there's not a difference in mindset (perspective), regardless of the human pattern-seeking brain's tendency to wander away from it if we are not careful, between the atheistic and theistic worldviews?

We can start with simple things, like "they believe in magical causation for events and Revealed Truths™, which we do not accept as part of reality".

Belief is not the same as one's whole worldview/mindset. What you seem to be describing is more akin to skepticism and/or empiricism, which are world views where people tend to say "I don't believe it, show me the data." Atheism is merely a position of non-belief that is held by people with varying world views and ways of arriving at their beliefs. Not all atheists are skeptics or empiricists, so not all of them have a tendency to insist on data and evidence.